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Office of Treaties and Alliances
Topic Started: Jul 2 2013, 07:20:55 PM (3,722 Views)
Prussia
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Secret Cylon Agent
I like the read of it.
PrussianEmpire
Former Delegate of The East Pacific

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Richard Alexander
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Bachtendekuppen
Nov 9 2013, 07:18:14 PM
I've just been elected Delegate and need to organize a bit, I'll look in to this as soon as possible.
Thank you, and congratulations on your election.
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Of the Imperial House of Fominov>Stewart
Position in House: Heir of the Fominovs


Honorary Lord of the house of Dawkins

Married to Daniel C.A. (Grey-Anumia, Norfolk) North, AKA Imperial Royalist, who is the son of John III, current king of the British Isles. Father of Frederick and Anthony North-Norfolk. Son of Alexander II and Victoria of the United Kingdom. Brother to Edward IX, uncle to James III&VIII Current King of the United Kingdom.

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Archbishop of Canterbury
Kingdom of Great BritainHeir of the Fominovs
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A Slanted Black Stripe
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I served in this Ministry at the request of the previous Delegate, AMOM.

I offer my resignation from this Ministry, if needed by the new Delegate, Bachtendekuppen, so that he may restructure the Foreign Affairs organization in a style of his own choosing.
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Bachtendekuppen
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The Puffin
All current Ministers are indeed discharged, so I accept your resignation. Some major FA reform is going to happen first, after which people can again apply to the available positions. ASBS, if you want you can of course join in again too.

PS: To ease the blow, you'll get a nice severance package, including a framed picture of a Puffin.
Edited by Bachtendekuppen, Nov 12 2013, 02:27:42 PM.
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Bach for TEP

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A Slanted Black Stripe
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Bachtendekuppen
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The Puffin
Isn't that just lovely.
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Bach for TEP

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Bachtendekuppen
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The Puffin
All offers concerning treaties can be posted here and will be administered by The Minister of Foreign Affairs, the relevant ambassadors and the Delegate, as well as any appointed Advisors to this office. (More details, look at the first post.)
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Bach for TEP

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Bachtendekuppen
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The Puffin
This is the treaty between TEP and Lazarus as it already existed. I've made some minor modifications. I'm posting it here for some input before it's introduced to the Magisterium.

Quote:
 
TREATY BETWEEN THE EAST PACIFIC AND LAZARUS

Article I
Both signatories recognize that the People's Republic of Lazarus is the legitimate government of the region Lazarus and that The East Pacific government under The Concordat is the legitimate government of The East Pacific. Both signatories recognize each other as sovereign entities.

Article II
Both signatories ensure continuing diplomatic relations and agree to open and maintain embassies for the other party on their soil. The signatories promise to ensure the continued existence and use of these embassies as long as the alliance prevails.

Article III
Both signatories agree to provide military aid to defend the security and sovereignty of the other party's region when either region's other allies aren't involved. They will provide this military aid at the request of the other party, or if the signatory believes that a state of emergency exists in which the other party is unable to request military aid. Both signatories also agree to support each other in times when the other region is being assaulted by hostile forces.

Article IV
Both signatories agree to provide intelligence information at the request of the other party, as long this information does not harm their security or jeopardize ongoing intelligence gathering operations of their region or their allies. Both signatories are obliged to provide intelligence information to the other party if it refers to an immediate security concern to that party. Although both signatories must agree not to use the other party to harm the security or sovereignty of another region.

Article V
Both signatories may work on military operations beyond those ensured in Article III and both agree that closer military co-operation should be encouraged. However there is no obligation for the signatories to work together on military operations beyond those ensured in Article III.

Article VI
If any or both regions fail to abide by the following terms articles set forth by this alliance, either signatory may withdraw, but must give a week's notice to the other party before it becomes void and both signatories agree to attempt seek a diplomatic solution before withdrawing.

Edited by Bachtendekuppen, Nov 22 2013, 11:07:02 AM.
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Bach for TEP

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Prussia
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Looks solid
PrussianEmpire
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A Slanted Black Stripe
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Quote:
 
If any or both regions fail to abide by the following terms articles set forth by this alliance, either signatory may withdraw, but must give a week's notice to the other party before it becomes void and both signatories agree to attempt seek a diplomatic solution before withdrawing.


I will make my usual comment. Once a treaty is done, it's over. You can specify a time period, but it is unenforceable. As an extreme example, if Laz invaded TEP, we would not wait a week before invalidating the treaty. It would be dead.
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unibot
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A Slanted Black Stripe
Nov 22 2013, 01:04:58 PM
Quote:
 
If any or both regions fail to abide by the following terms articles set forth by this alliance, either signatory may withdraw, but must give a week's notice to the other party before it becomes void and both signatories agree to attempt seek a diplomatic solution before withdrawing.


I will make my usual comment. Once a treaty is done, it's over. You can specify a time period, but it is unenforceable. As an extreme example, if Laz invaded TEP, we would not wait a week before invalidating the treaty. It would be dead.
I disagree. A week's notice can be used to save some face politically.
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Unibot now occupies himself with his propaganda, again under his age old assumption that everybody is an idiot apart from him, and that by indoctrinating the masses in his bizarre delusions he automatically gains control of everyones destiny.
Belschaft
 
Unibot is a parasite; he flits around NS under the mantle of 'cosmopolitanism', loyal to nothing but himself and his own ideology. To him regions are nothing but potential converts, to be brought into the fold via subversion and manipulation.
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A Slanted Black Stripe
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A week's notice can be used to save some face, but it is unenforceable. As I tried to illustrate in the example, if Laz invades TEP, the treaty is over. We're not going to wait a week. I've suggested keeping the language of diplomatic solutions, as that will also allow time and face saving, but I don't see a practical way to include a fixed time in the treaty.
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Old Federalia
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This treaty would be signed in good faith. The one week waiting period is an extension of that good faith, and is proper "due diligence" because this treaty could potentially be canceled in haste without it.

If you think they are going to attack us, then we shouldn't sign the treaty. If you do not think that, then please do not make up inane circumstances. (The WA has a rule against that, because it's not possible to legislate for every imaginable possibility.) A better circumstance would be if either of the regions attack or spy on the other's ally--but then would the one week period be unbearable?

Now don't get me wrong, it goes without saying that during that one week period, the allies are more than likely not going to enforce the terms. Instead, it is meant to force the two sides to step back and contemplate a solution.
Edited by Old Federalia, Nov 23 2013, 01:59:21 AM.
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A Slanted Black Stripe:
 
And OF is the number one debater of everything.
Anur-Sanur
 
[The East Pacific] is a region on laws rather than directed by the whims of the delegate/founder
Bachtendekuppen
 
Kill the children!

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Bachtendekuppen
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Both Unibot and Old Federalia have elaborated on different aspects of this and I'm inclined to agree.

One has to keep in mind that, de facto, none of these treaties are 'enforceable'. They signal indeed good faith, but we can never force one party to actually keep their obligations, apart from some political pressure.

A weeks waiting time is an expression of said good faith, but excluding it solely on the basis of it not being enforceable, we might as well scrap the whole treaty-business for the same reason.

ASBS, you're surely right that in such case of invasion, this will certainly not be relevant nor complied with. However, I don't think we can state that the enforceability is the main reason or requirement of existence of such clauses.
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Bach for TEP

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A Slanted Black Stripe
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Just to be clear, I completely understand about "good faith" and "face saving." I am in no way confused as to the goals of the one week waiting period. I will not vote against a treaty because it has an unenforceable and unnecessary clause in it. I am simply arguing for rational judgment and logic.

Bachtendekuppen
 
One has to keep in mind that, de facto, none of these treaties are 'enforceable'. They signal indeed good faith, but we can never force one party to actually keep their obligations, apart from some political pressure.


Actually, the enforcement of all other matters in the treaty is the continuation of the treaty. If one side fails to meet their obligations, the other side can void the treaty. That's all the enforcement that is needed.

The one-week clause is a different matter since it prohibits one side from ending the treaty when the other side has failed to keep their part of the bargain. This is very different from the rest of the treaty as it impacts the process of discontinuing the treaty.

There appears to be a lot of support for this clause, but don't justify it by suggesting that it is as unenforceable as the rest of the treaty.
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Old Federalia
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Professor F
Milograd canceled the Laz-TSP treaty because Belschaft said something mean to him. Then, Laz and TSP issued some sort of joint statement of friendship or something, because TSP didn't want to cancel the treaty.

If they had the waiting period, that wouldn't have happened.
Edited by Old Federalia, Nov 23 2013, 05:37:30 PM.
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A Slanted Black Stripe:
 
And OF is the number one debater of everything.
Anur-Sanur
 
[The East Pacific] is a region on laws rather than directed by the whims of the delegate/founder
Bachtendekuppen
 
Kill the children!

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A Slanted Black Stripe
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Quote:
 
Milograd canceled the Laz-TSP treaty because Belschaft said something mean to him. Then, Laz and TSP issued some sort of joint statement of friendship or something, because TSP didn't want to cancel the treaty.

If they had the waiting period, that wouldn't have happened.


Maybe. Maybe not. If someone gets angry and cancels a treaty, they may not wait even if there is a waiting period. What is the current status of the Laz-TSP treaty? How did this particular episode end after the joint statement of friendship?
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Prussia
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A non aggression pack and a Laz sending a a gift over the sp.
PrussianEmpire
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Quote:
 
A non aggression pack and a Laz sending a a gift over the sp.


So, I don't exactly understand this sentence. I assume a non aggression pack is really a pact (or a treaty). So, is there still is a treaty between Laz and TSP? And I have no idea about the gift or what "over the sp" means?

Given my limited understanding, it seems like no harm was done even though Belschaft said something "mean" and Milograd got upset.

I apologize, I'm not really following the thread of this argument. And I've already accepted that if all of you want to put a waiting period in the treaty, I'm not going to do anything to oppose that.
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Old Federalia
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Nov 25 2013, 01:18:35 AM
So, I don't exactly understand this sentence. I assume a non aggression pack is really a pact (or a treaty). So, is there still is a treaty between Laz and TSP? And I have no idea about the gift or what "over the sp" means?

Given my limited understanding, it seems like no harm was done even though Belschaft said something "mean" and Milograd got upset.

I apologize, I'm not really following the thread of this argument. And I've already accepted that if all of you want to put a waiting period in the treaty, I'm not going to do anything to oppose that.
A nonaggression pact means Laz and TSP agree not to militarily support a coup. It is not a treaty, whereas they would agree to fight a coup. I don't know what a gift over the SP is either.

Harm was definitely done by two individuals because their actions weren't motivated by the greater good, but instead by egos.

Why won't you oppose it? Just because everyone else disagrees with you doesn't mean your point is invalid. Has everyone disagreeing with me ever stopped me?
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A Slanted Black Stripe:
 
And OF is the number one debater of everything.
Anur-Sanur
 
[The East Pacific] is a region on laws rather than directed by the whims of the delegate/founder
Bachtendekuppen
 
Kill the children!

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A Slanted Black Stripe
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I haven't conceded that my point is invalid. My point is that the clause is unnecessary and unenforceable. It causes no harm or risk to The East Pacific, therefore I do not oppose it.
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Milograd
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I'd like to clarify. What happened was that Belschaft telegrammed me stating TSP's intention to end the treaty, so I ended up dissolving it before he could. Then, I received a telegram from another TSP cabinet member saying that Bel had illegally circumvented the entire TSP system in doing so.

If you wish to alter the line, the State Council of the People's Republic has no objections.
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Milo - Thanks for the clarification.

(I still don't know what "a gift over the sp" means.)

It's the Delegate's decision on any changes. A draft was posted with comments solicited and I offered my suggestions.
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Aelitia
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The Fluffy Horde
Have we any treaties on education sharing?


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"Viceroy Aelitia, whatever pills he might use, sure has ushered in a new era of TEP law"-EPNS 18/09/14

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Old Federalia
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We have one treaty. It's with Lazarus from July 2009. It's in Bach's pdf list.
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A Slanted Black Stripe:
 
And OF is the number one debater of everything.
Anur-Sanur
 
[The East Pacific] is a region on laws rather than directed by the whims of the delegate/founder
Bachtendekuppen
 
Kill the children!

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Aelitia
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The Fluffy Horde
Oh okay- I do see this now. Unfortunately this does my address learning or universities, but does speak about intelligence. Hopefully this is something we could talk about in the future.


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"Viceroy Aelitia, whatever pills he might use, sure has ushered in a new era of TEP law"-EPNS 18/09/14

Civillian Missile Commander, Nuclear Apocalypse, April 2017
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Arbiter of Conclave 05-06-14 to 09-08-16
Vizier 07-30-15 to 11-24-16
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Old Federalia
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Professor F
Now is the time. We are rewriting said treaty.
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A Slanted Black Stripe:
 
And OF is the number one debater of everything.
Anur-Sanur
 
[The East Pacific] is a region on laws rather than directed by the whims of the delegate/founder
Bachtendekuppen
 
Kill the children!

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Aelitia
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The Fluffy Horde
Quite opportune I must say, then!

I would like to see a clause in there which states a mutual dedication to the advancement of education and universities. Something not too definitive, yet which gives a context for any further talks.


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"Viceroy Aelitia, whatever pills he might use, sure has ushered in a new era of TEP law"-EPNS 18/09/14

Civillian Missile Commander, Nuclear Apocalypse, April 2017
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Delegate
Viceroy of The East Pacific 05-25-14 to 09-08-16
Arbiter of Conclave 05-06-14 to 09-08-16
Vizier 07-30-15 to 11-24-16
Magister
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Aelitia
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The Fluffy Horde
I would offer a suggestion, but I don't know the language of the treaty very well


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"Viceroy Aelitia, whatever pills he might use, sure has ushered in a new era of TEP law"-EPNS 18/09/14

Civillian Missile Commander, Nuclear Apocalypse, April 2017
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Delegate
Viceroy of The East Pacific 05-25-14 to 09-08-16
Arbiter of Conclave 05-06-14 to 09-08-16
Vizier 07-30-15 to 11-24-16
Magister
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Bachtendekuppen
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The Puffin
I guess that something vague like it could be added to the treaty, along the lines that both parties will support their learning facilities working together. It's not something that changes anything to the core of the treaty, so I suspect this should be okay. I wouldn't go any further than that though.
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