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Discussion - Standing Orders of Viziers
Topic Started: Apr 14 2015, 02:52:30 PM (365 Views)
British Grand Pacific
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We are the Misfits, Our Songs are Bitter
While this is being presented in public, I'd like to limit those participating to current Viziers, the Delegate, the Viceroy, and the Provost. Thanks.

With the exception of the Delegacy, each branch of government mentioned in the Concordat has a set of standing orders that gives structure and definition to the respective bodies. I feel it is time to consider establishing the same for Viziers, arguably the most poorly defined entities in TEP.

Draft of Standing Orders of Viziers
 

STANDING ORDERS OF VIZIERS

The Viziers of the East Pacific hereby resolve within this agreement the procedures and responsibilities vested in their persons to safeguard this region. No portion of this agreement may be taken to establish rights and privileges for any party not so declared by the Concordat of the East Pacific.


SECTION 1 - DUTIES
...1.1 - Maintain awareness of endorsement levels and review available reports;
.......1.1 - Make weekly effort to retain or increase endorsement level,
.......1.2 - Withdraw endorsement from any nation who is at or above the current cap.
...1.2 - Promote activity in the region and growth in the region;
.......2.1 - Recruit new citizens by advertising on the RMB,
.......2.2 - Engage in Regional Cultural Events,
.......2.3 - Engage in Regional Polls.
...1.3 - Protect the Delegacy of The East Pacific;
.......3.1 - By removing any individual illegally obtaining the delegacy,
.......3.2 - By removing a Delegate removed so ordered by the Magisterum,
.......3.3 - By temporarily removing a Delegate by majority vote.
...1.4 - Remain active and punctual in all duties;
.......4.1 - Respond within 48 hours of call to vote.

SECTION 2 - REMOVAL OF DELEGATE
...2.1 - Any Vizier may call for a vote to temporarily remove the Delegate from office;
.......1.1 - Evidence must show willful intent,
.......1.2 - Evidence must show the act either directly violates or establishes precedent that undermines the nature of the Concordat,
.......1.3 - Evidence must be beyond all reasonable doubt.
...2.2 - The vote to remove the Delegate must have a simple majority of all Viziers.
.......2.1 - The Magisterium shall be immediately informed upon closing of a vote to remove,
.......2.2 - The longest serving Vizier shall become the Interim Delegate,
.......2.3 - The Interim Delegate shall occupy the delegacy in good faith until a new Delegate is duly elected or the current one restored by the Magisterium.

SECTION 3 - ABSENCE AND REMOVAL
...3.1 - Absence shall be defined as refusal to actively maintain a reasonable endorsement level or chronic absence from Regional Cultural Events;
.......1.1 - Endorsements gained through passive methods such as the World Factbook Entry or the Regional Welcome Telegram shall be removed from consideration,
...3.2 - A Vizier failing to respond to calls of activity by fellow Viziers shall be declared absent.
.......2.1 - A call to activity shall be direct messaging in official Skype channels, private forum messaging, and in-game telegrams.
.......2.2 - Failure to post a Leave of Absence shall not excuse a Vizier except in the case of Real World Emergency.
...3.3 - A Vizier may be removed by a 2/3 vote by Conclave for Absence or High Crimes;
.......3.1 - A Vizier requesting a vote to temporarily remove the Delegate from office does so with authority granted by the Concordat.

SECTION 4 - AMENDMENTS
...4.1 - The Standing Orders shall be amended in through majority vote of all Viziers. Any alterations that conflict with the Concordat or Laws of the East Pacific shall be remedied.


Questions, comments, concerns, rants, raves, whines, gripes, etc.?
Edited by British Grand Pacific, Apr 14 2015, 02:54:25 PM.
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A Slanted Black Stripe
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When I was asked to be a Vizier, this is all that I agreed to do:

Quote:
 
Article D: Viziers

Section 1) This Concordat does hereby invest the power of regional defense to the Viziers.

Section 2) The Viziers shall be charged with removing from power any Delegate removed by the Magisterium or any individual that has illegally seized the Delegacy.

Section 3) The Viziers may temporarily remove the Delegate if the majority of Viziers believe beyond a reasonable doubt that the Delegate has acted to destroy this Concordat. This removal must be confirmed within seventy-two hours by a 2/3 vote of the Magisterium or a decision by the Conclave or the Delegate shall be reinstated.


(Note: There is something funky about the way you have things numbered. If I say 1.1 or 1.2, it is not clear what I am referencing.)

In the proposed list of duties, I am unable (or unwilling) to have these be a duty of a Vizier:

Quote:
 
...1.2 - Promote activity in the region and growth in the region;
.......2.1 - Recruit new citizens by advertising on the RMB,
.......2.2 - Engage in Regional Cultural Events,
.......2.3 - Engage in Regional Polls.


I think Section 2 is an over-reach. We can only remove delegates for three reasons:

(1) The Magisterium has voted to remove the Delegate.
(2) The individual has illegally seized the Delegacy. (You might want to consider a more thorough definition of this within these standing orders.)
(3) The Delegate may be temporarily removed if a majority of us believe the Delegate has acted to destroy the Concordat. (You might want to consider adding a definition of that within these standing orders.)

I think Section 3 does not belong in the standing orders of the Viziers. We are not empowered to remove Viziers for any reason, nor are we empowered to define absence and high crimes. The Conclave gets to create those definitions.

In Section 4, I have no objection to amending the standing orders by majority vote. These standing orders should probably have some information on the process of Vizier voting. We have to vote at times, but the process is undefined.

I would drop the last sentence in Section 4. The Concordat and the Laws of the East Pacific overrule anything in the standing orders of the Viziers. If there is an alteration that is in conflict, then it is just wrong.

=========

The idea that Viziers need to do "something" has come up in the past. Other than accruing enough endorsements and influence to protect the region from outside attacks on the Delegate or internal attacks on the region by the Delegate, I don't think Viziers need to be active in any other way.

The existence of a few high endorsement, high influence, and trustworthy individuals is a sufficient deterrent effect to achieve that protection. That's all I promise to do. As it happens, I have also stayed active in the Magisterium, but that is just an "extra gift" I have given to the region.

:zen:
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British Grand Pacific
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Just say 1.1.1, which is similar to the system in the SOM.

I don't understand how a person charged with defense of the region, has their name on display in the WFE, would be unwilling to participate in their region. That is an unfortunate POV for someone in such a position. If anything, active participation and recruitment should be a priority of regional defense. An anemic community lead to the rise of the Empire in TEP afterall.

[ETA] Section 1 would take all of 5-10 minutes a week to accomplish, especially with the tarting tool that all Viziers have access to.

Concordat
 
Section 2) The Viziers shall be charged with removing from power any Delegate removed by the Magisterium or any individual that has illegally seized the Delegacy.
Section 3) The Viziers may temporarily remove the Delegate if the majority of Viziers believe beyond a reasonable doubt that the Delegate has acted to destroy this Concordat. This removal must be confirmed within seventy-two hours by a 2/3 vote of the Magisterium or a decision by the Conclave or the Delegate shall be reinstated.

Section 2 follows the Concordat. In fact, it lays ground rules for the type of evidence that may be presented in a vote to temporarily remove the Delegate and makes a declaration of which Vizier takes over in the interim. Not sure how that is an overreach.

A Slanted Black Stripe
 
I think it can be argued that AMOM is not a particularly good or attentive Vizier. Does that add up to high crimes or absence?

Section 3 does not grant the power to remove a Vizier but defines what it means to be absent. As an Arbiter, I'm well aware of what we can and cannot do as Viziers. You yourself raised the question of what it means to be absent in the thread to remove AMOM. Once again, 3.3 draws directly upon the Concordat by stating a 2/3 vote of Conclave removes a Vizier.

Being a good and attentive vizier ties back in to 1.2 and being part of the community.

The last line of section 4 is nearly identical to that found in the SOM.
Edited by British Grand Pacific, Apr 14 2015, 11:54:26 PM.
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East Malaysia
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I'm inclined to more or less agree with ASBS. It is simply defined what we are suppose to do. The reason behind this is because Viziers can join and be active in other parts of the government. So I have reviewed the draft to see what is viable and what is not.

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British Grand Pacific
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Since you can find similar definitions in both the SOC and SOM I'm going to assume that viziers merely want to be the guys with the endorsements and nothing else.

That revelation has me considering the position should no longer be a life term.
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Ramaeus
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I'm inclined to agree with BGP. As it stands, the Viziers are currently little more than emergency buffers whose designation is to remove a Delegate in the unlikely case that one goes rogue. These Standing Orders ensure that the Viziers can more effectively do their job. Engagement in the community means that they can command the respect of the community. As it stands, if I go rogue (not going to happen), I have a massive advantage because I'm active in the community, both off and onsite ones. Onsite is where my biggest advantage lives. Sitting there and collecting endorsements may be the only task you're constitutionally mandated to do, but you won't be able to command the respect of the onsite community if you're only endorsing them, especially if I go rogue and avoid doing anything that irks the native WA population.
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Aelitia
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I am inclined to agree with the spirit of the proposal. The Viziers, and the region at large, could benefit from a more formalized structure.

I have renewed a draft from last year in the Magisterium which would better accommodate the Viziers' adoption of self-made rules that are mutually agreeable. The draft, as proposed does not infringe on the Concordat, but instead better hones the structures through which Viziers can exercise their concordatial powers.

As for the SOV, I have reservations based on the detraction of many of the other Viziers. Perhaps a more relaxed version of gameside involvement, and possibly allow the holding of an active governmental position to count towards activity might ease some fears.


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Arbiter of Conclave 05-06-14 to 09-08-16
Vizier 07-30-15 to 11-24-16
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A Slanted Black Stripe
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BGP
 
That revelation has me considering the position should no longer be a life term.


Agreed. It probably shouldn't be a life term. And as I suggested over in the Vizier Congress/Council legislation, the place to approach this change is as an amendment to the Concordat.

Perhaps there should be an annual vote of confidence or no confidence for Viziers?

Ramaeus
 
As it stands, the Viziers are currently little more than emergency buffers whose designation is to remove a Delegate in the unlikely case that one goes rogue.


Yep. That was the original plan. That's why the Concordat is so terse on the role of the Viziers.

Ramaeus
 
... but you won't be able to command the respect of the onsite community ...


The original idea was that these were individuals who already had the respect of the region. They didn't need to earn it after becoming a Vizier. If we think that there is a requirement for Viziers to do something to earn that respect, then -- again -- I think the place for that requirement is the Concordat.

Finally -- and this is my most important question -- what problem are we trying to fix? What need are we trying to fulfill? The Vizier system was established as the Concordat was ratified. Since that time, there have been no hostile invasions of The East Pacific. There have been a couple of times when Viziers have become the Delegate due to internal needs, without drama and with a return of the Delegacy to a duly elected Delegate.

The current system has served TEP, as intended.

I'm not aware of any rogue behavior by any Vizier. Even this recent episode with concerns about AMOM has ended with AMOM-the-Vizier recognizing that he was no longer serving the region and he resigned.

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British Grand Pacific
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I was hoping we would take it upon ourselves to define such simple things as what it means to be absent and what exactly is the structure of the proceedings to remove a delegate if need be. I honestly didn't think it would be received as it had been. I'm taken back that the idea of participating in public cultural events is seen to be so revolutionary and too much to ask. I admit that it's more than a little bit embarrassing to think that we as a group would choose to be so elitist and aloof.

The article that defines our role has 3 sections and we are choosing to set such a narrow interpretation on them (especially s.1) that the argument against evolving and becoming a dynamic part of TEP is becoming the case to abolish an antiquated position. The East Pacific Police Service is tasked with the bulk of Regional Defense as it is. So is the East Pacific Sovereign Army. I'd argue that consideration should be given to make it a ministerial position instead of a constitutional office.

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BGP
 
Questions, comments, concerns, rants, raves, whines, gripes, etc.?


You asked for feedback and you got responses.

BGP
 
I'm taken back that the idea of participating in public cultural events is seen to be so revolutionary and too much to ask. I admit that it's more than a little bit embarrassing to think that we as a group would choose to be so elitist and aloof.


I think the current group of Viziers contributes and participates as much as they are able. I do not think the group is elitist and aloof. I don't think the idea of participating in public cultural events is revolutionary.

I do think requiring Viziers to participate is a fundamental change. It is not a current requirement of the job.

Rather than posting on the RMB, I choose to spend my time here in the forums. I'm mostly interested in governance structures and how we manage leadership transitions.

I don't really care what people's favorite TV show genre might be. If others find that interesting, they should participate, but I wouldn't mandate anyone's participation.

My greatest interest in the vast bulk of nations of TEP are those who play the issues and stay away from the RMB and the forums. I try to exchange TGs with some of them. Most of them go unanswered. That's how I played the game until the now infamous time I suddenly found myself far more involved than I ever intended.

I haven't served in the EPSA and it is unlikely that I ever will. I'm not interested in that part of the game. I believe I was asked to be a Vizier, in part, because of my disinterest in that part of the game. I'm painfully trustworthy when it comes to protecting the nations of the region.

I apologize for making this so much about me, but the debate was beginning to feel like a personal attack.

Yes, I think a good Vizier is involved with region.

And no, I don't think we should mandate what that involvement should be via standing orders or some legislation in the Magisterium.
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Aelitia
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ASBS
 
And no, I don't think we should mandate what that involvement should be via standing orders or some legislation in the Magisterium.


Correction. The Legislation to which you are referencing does not "mandate" any form of regional involvement that otherwise required by the Concordat. This was unique of the SOV proposal, as I do believe it would be best for the Viziers to figure it out among themselves what being a good and active Vizier means outside of the mandatory functions.


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Delegate
Viceroy of The East Pacific 05-25-14 to 09-08-16
Arbiter of Conclave 05-06-14 to 09-08-16
Vizier 07-30-15 to 11-24-16
Magister
Vice Chancellor TEP University



Aelitia on NS
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A Slanted Black Stripe
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Aelitia
 
The Legislation to which you are referencing does not "mandate" any form of regional involvement that otherwise required by the Concordat.


It was not my intention to reference the particular legislation being debated in the Magisterium. I am trying to keep up with both of these debates and I have addressed my specific concerns about that legislation in that thread.

I was referencing the general idea of mandating specific kinds of involvement in standing orders or some legislation. However someone may want to mandate it, I don't think it is a good idea.

I will emphasize that I agree that to be a good Vizier, the Vizier needs to be involved in the region. I prefer the Vizier makes the choice of how he or she is involved.
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East Malaysia
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This is my idea...

Since the issue is pretty much about what the Viziers do and don't do... Why not just have a requirement that you have to be active in a different position in the region and you have a choice of things you can do. It gives the Vizier the freedom to choose.
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British Grand Pacific
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It has been made perfectly clear that requiring anything more is a bridge too far and would somehow require an amendment to the Concordat.

I withdraw the suggestion of the SOV in its entirety.
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