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A Discussion on RMB Roleplay; Raising concerns on what has largely been left unattended in recent months
Topic Started: Jul 13 2018, 02:45:00 PM (1,941 Views)
Drachen
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Yare yare dawa...
Roleplay on the Regional Message Board
A regional stimulant or more trouble than it's worth?

I've wanted to write a post like this for some time, and since this sub-forum has largely gone unnoticed since 2017, I'll kill two birds with one stone by getting this issue addressed and forum activity increased.

It's no secret that "RMB roleplay", hereafter referred to as "RMB RP", has more or less dominated our regional message board for the last few months. While this has been excellent for activity, it has not been without its problems. I'd like to attack the topic from both sides here and solicit some responses from you all.

It cannot be denied that RMB RP has been the primary source of activity game-side. Retention also seems to be strong as we have consistently managed '2nd most nations' for months now, though it is arguable to what extent the RMB RP has contributed there. I have also noticed that there is an underlying community that seems reasonably strong, as a good many nations are committed to promoting and continuing what I believe is a very chaotic roleplay universe. Though there exists issues of godmodding and amateurish writing here and there, on the whole it is impressive to witness the continued development of the story and involvement of so many users.

To its discredit, however, there exists the issue where during the day, it is typically very difficult for any other sort of conversation to survive thanks to the constant deluge of posts surrounding the roleplay. I've experienced this issue firsthand many times, so much so that even though I was once an RMB regular, I legitimately do not like visiting it anymore and only do so to keep the peace as a regional officer. The person there are nice for the most part, but unless you're a part of this world, you're typically forced out.

There is also a worry of users leaving the region as a result of the actions that take place on the RMB, and this is most certainly unacceptable. Yesterday, two users had left because of some drama even I don't fully understand, and one of them was maligning the region by failing to separate TEP as a whole from the RMB RP that took places. While retention is important, perhaps even more so is maintaining our image, and having users go to other regions and talking down about TEP is not okay. Fortunately, both users returned and damage was kept to a minimum, but we cannot be sure this will happen in the future.

In essence, what, if anything, should be done about RMB RP? Should it be restricted? Should it be moderated? Should we market it here on the forums? It should be understood that if any serious action is taken, we take the risk of alienating what is a noticeable part of the community, and likely the majority of actives game-side. The counter to that would be, of course, is that really a bad thing?

To condense what my opinion would be on the matter, it would be that while we don't have to do a whole lot, something should be done, as what we have now is not sustainable. I would advocate for more stringent moderation of the roleplay yet allow it to continue, perhaps even installing a frequent roleplayer as a regional officer so as to manage things when others might be unavailable to help.

I would like to hear from all residential parties on the matter: people who do and do not participate in RMB RP, citizens, officers, admins, you name it. I'll share whatever is posted here with the delegate and determine what is to be done.
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FireFox
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hello, Again
The issue is how hard it is to build content.the ideas are all there. Yet they can't bring it out maybe because of not getting enough in return or unable take what they are given to large enough post. Rmb is for smaller 2-5 paragraphs posts but the rmb currently doesn't have the want, drive, or need to push those out
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Hail Lala
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A Slime draws near, , ,
Lala has extensive experience with RMB RP in TNP. Last year lala even campaigned for gameside users to feel more equal with the forum users over there because there was such a gap between the two to the point that it almost erupted into a civil war. The by product of gameside/rmb getting more attention was an rp community. It started out really bad, bad writing and just extremely toxic.

It lacked structure.

What lala did in the north was establish a treaty and set of rules through shared factbooks that became divine law within the rp universe over at the norths rmb. A group of people including lala also helped moderate it and made sure everyone was following the rules and settle disputes that became OOC for IC reasons. This did not eliminate toxicity completely but it definitely curbed it significantly. You cant eliminate toxicity in a community. It was in the norths rmb rp AS WELL as their forum side and ministry. Not going to point out names but there were quite a few over there govt wise that acted childish as some of the rmb users.

Regardless Lala thinks that moderation is better than complete restriction. Appointing some on rmb side as well as one from forum side to lay down rules for their rp such as anti god mode laws, toxicity, common courtesy etc etc. You can abolish the rmb rp if you want but as drachen said, retention is even stronger with it. It's not the sole reason for retention but it is a helping factor. It also is just another thing that our region has as opposed to other regions who outlaw it so it can attract more nations to our region. It also makes us look even more active.

Moderation is key here and it could definitely help open doors for recruitment in the future. As Loop said before, the east is a beacon of freedom. The rmb rp should be a freedom they should have. Even if its distasteful to some.
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Pakitsk
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Politically Incorrect
As much as I love the activity and retention the RMB RP gives, it has its downsides. The way the RMBs generally go is such that nobody can get so much as a few posts in that aren't RP related, and things like regional announcements on the RMB are ignored, as everyone is on the next page in a matter of seconds. Honestly, I think that's not fixable; the generation of older, longer RP posts is largely gone. However, I would like to bring up the possibility of restricting RMB RP to a certain timeframe; say, 12:00pm-12:00am EST, to be a "RP bloc." The specific timing of this bloc isn't important; what is is that this way lets other conversations happen, and lets the RPers get their fix.
PREPARE FOR THE BOT REVOLUTION. ALL HAIL THE LOLIGARCH. THAT IS ALL.
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Yuno
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How about just making an embassy region to TEP, passwording it so no one can join, and forcing all RP posts to be posted there?

Here is an example TSP employs: [region]knowhere[/region]

Also, keep discussing ^^
These are insightful posts
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Fedele
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Kilroy was here
The RMB has always been the "wild wild west." Leave it alone. You already have the forum.
Don't take my word for it, see what others have said!
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Malphe
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imo good moderation and enforcement of RP rules is the best option here. Banning it would be dumb and I don't even know how that would be enforced.
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Drachen
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Yare yare dawa...
Yuno
Jul 13 2018, 03:26:06 PM
How about just making an embassy region to TEP, passwording it so no one can join, and forcing all RP posts to be posted there?

Here is an example TSP employs: [region]knowhere[/region]

Also, keep discussing ^^
These are insightful posts
I personally am not fan of generating a whole new region just so the roleplay can exist elsewhere. Fracturing the region would likely result in a worse situation than allowing them to continue as they are. I'm actually quite impressed that the roleplayers haven't done this already, and at the very least they contribute to the region by increment our population and World Assmebly endorsement counts.

Malphe
Jul 13 2018, 03:34:48 PM
imo good moderation and enforcement of RP rules is the best option here. Banning it would be dumb and I don't even know how that would be enforced.
Well, you could turn the RMB into a tyrannical wasteland like some regions...

But yeah, a full ban is not something I would support.
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Nova-Columbia
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A Slime draws near, , ,
Well, I've been invested in the RMB RP for a while now, and while it's true that it has its bad parts, I also have to say that trying to moderate it will only end in disaster and a drop in users. The RMB thrives on spontaneity, and moderation will take that away. Encourage people to head to the forums, but leave the RMB alone, or do what others suggested and create a separate, embassy region for RMB RP.
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Malphe
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Hive Drone
Drachen
Jul 13 2018, 03:41:00 PM
Malphe
Jul 13 2018, 03:34:48 PM
imo good moderation and enforcement of RP rules is the best option here. Banning it would be dumb and I don't even know how that would be enforced.
Well, you could turn the RMB into a tyrannical wasteland like some regions...

But yeah, a full ban is not something I would support.
Moderation is tricky to get right, but neglecting to moderate the RMB isn't a solution. I prefer to post my reasoning behind a suppression or banjection with a mention to the offender, so they can learn from their mistake.
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Marrabuk
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I agree with Fedele.

As a quite active RMB RP-er myself. In my opinion, the problem isn't the RMB RP. The problem is people confusing between IC and OOC. Also another problem is people bringing IRL problems to In-game. That is the problem I see. And that was exactly what caused the "drama" yesterday.

If there is a need for moderation. I can only see moderation being in the form of giving warnings(for first time offenders) and subsequently banning the people who confuse OOC and IC and those that bring IRL problems to In-game and affecting other people who just wanna have fun.
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Malphe
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Jul 13 2018, 03:42:50 PM
Well, I've been invested in the RMB RP for a while now, and while it's true that it has its bad parts, I also have to say that trying to moderate it will only end in disaster and a drop in users. The RMB thrives on spontaneity, and moderation will take that away. Encourage people to head to the forums, but leave the RMB alone, or do what others suggested and create a separate, embassy region for RMB RP.
I do like the idea of a new region for RP, like Knowhere, though enforcing that might be tricky.
Some rat.
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Marrabuk
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Malphe
Jul 13 2018, 03:49:10 PM
Nova-Columbia
Jul 13 2018, 03:42:50 PM
Well, I've been invested in the RMB RP for a while now, and while it's true that it has its bad parts, I also have to say that trying to moderate it will only end in disaster and a drop in users. The RMB thrives on spontaneity, and moderation will take that away. Encourage people to head to the forums, but leave the RMB alone, or do what others suggested and create a separate, embassy region for RMB RP.
I do like the idea of a new region for RP, like Knowhere, though enforcing that might be tricky.
A new region for RP would only cause more problems and more unnecessary work for the moderators(i.e. government)
Edited by Marrabuk, Jul 13 2018, 04:02:11 PM.
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FireFox
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hello, Again
Splitting the region could lead to the second regions splitting off from TEP all together
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Zukchiva
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Why are we here?
Marrabuk
Jul 13 2018, 03:52:04 PM
Malphe
Jul 13 2018, 03:49:10 PM
Nova-Columbia
Jul 13 2018, 03:42:50 PM
Well, I've been invested in the RMB RP for a while now, and while it's true that it has its bad parts, I also have to say that trying to moderate it will only end in disaster and a drop in users. The RMB thrives on spontaneity, and moderation will take that away. Encourage people to head to the forums, but leave the RMB alone, or do what others suggested and create a separate, embassy region for RMB RP.
I do like the idea of a new region for RP, like Knowhere, though enforcing that might be tricky.
A new region for RP would only cause more problems and more unnecessary work for the moderators(i.e. government)
While I do believe this is the best option, it has the major drawback of basically killing RMB RP. In reality there's no telling what could happen if we make another region for roleplay. This could help RMB RP, or it can backfire and make people leave to other regions.

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United Massachusetts
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OK, so I have some thoughts here:

  • It's very telling that a discussion primarily about the RMB is occuring on the forum, and I'm not quite sure I like what it's saying. This thread's discussion is going to naturally appear to most RMB folks like the forum oligarchy imposing its rule on the citizens.
  • As an outsider to the region until recent times, I'm going to be honest--between the RMB, the WFE, and the general demeanour of the region, this appears (not in a bad way, neccesarily), to be the least organised feeder at face value. Reforming the RMB will help this image, though that "wild west" feel is potentially more of an attraction than a turn-off.
  • I'm concerned about the RPers leaver the region.

Overall, I say I'm opposed to any sort of "crack-down"-type policy.
Edited by United Massachusetts, Jul 13 2018, 04:10:18 PM.
United Massachusetts
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Nation of Elementia
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Face Plant!
Hello.
If you do know me, I was one of the players that left yesterday due to some... I don't wanna talk about it. The people that need to know what happened know what happened. And I am going to keep this short and simple.
1. I didn't not trash talk TEP. I would never think about that.
2. I will agree. The RMB RP is quite chaotic sometimes.

I tried helping with enacting the SA rule for which the RMB RP could follow to help prevent godmodders, but questions arose, and people got discouraged. I scrapped it, and people were OK.

The RMB RP, I feel like, just needs to run its course... and that's all I can say.

P.S. I am really sorry about what happened yesterday. I had a breakdown and didn't handle myself correctly. I don't even know why I came back. Some people were very relieved. I am very sorry, and I wish for that to never happen again. In my defense though (even though it is entirely my fault for not controlling myself), I was getting stressed. But it is my entire fault and I wish to not repeat these actions ever again.

-Elementia
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Hail Lala
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A Slime draws near, , ,
Lala doesnt like the idea of a separate region for RP. It divides the region and could make moderation even harder. Theres also possibilities that they could diverge away from the east and end up becoming their own independent faction or even just outright leave to other regions. Retention is important and we do need a large population within the east. We really cant afford to be splintering off.
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Drachen
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Yare yare dawa...
Nation of Elementia
Jul 13 2018, 04:19:09 PM
Hello.
If you do know me, I was one of the players that left yesterday due to some... I don't wanna talk about it. The people that need to know what happened know what happened. And I am going to keep this short and simple.
1. I didn't not trash talk TEP. I would never think about that.
2. I will agree. The RMB RP is quite chaotic sometimes.

I tried helping with enacting the SA rule for which the RMB RP could follow to help prevent godmodders, but questions arose, and people got discouraged. I scrapped it, and people were OK.

The RMB RP, I feel like, just needs to run its course... and that's all I can say.

P.S. I am really sorry about what happened yesterday. I had a breakdown and didn't handle myself correctly. I don't even know why I came back. Some people were very relieved. I am very sorry, and I wish for that to never happen again. In my defense though (even though it is entirely my fault for not controlling myself), I was getting stressed. But it is my entire fault and I wish to not repeat these actions ever again.

-Elementia
"I am a refugee from TEP as I am not wanted there." I'm not sure how else to interpret this beyond your unfairly condensing TEP into being represented by a few questionable roleplayers. When you go into other regions and say this kind of stuff, whether it's fitting or not, it can have a negative effect.

Anyway, you are not the only one who has done something like this (Shavara had left with you) in the past, so it's not a centralized attack but more a request that this sort of behavior doesn't occur. Instead of doing stuff like this, you need to come to active regional officers such as myself or Pakitsk. We are here to help and to ensure that you don't experience these sorts of negative feelings or feel the need to leave.
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Prole Confederation
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A Slime draws near, , ,
I was on a region called Auralia that was a thriving RP community on the RMB, but we had lots of RPs on the forums as well and most of the people on the RMB only were a mix of RP and talking to each other.

We only had 300-600 posts on the RMB a day though, so it's an entirely different ball game. Most of the people who RPed were at least a little bit serious about it, and we had many maps, along with many military alliances.

My thoughts are that what happens now is popular and good, it works for now, but the issue is that it does cause problems. However, what isn't RP on the RMB looks mostly like small talk..So it's not exactly more important.

I would consider perhaps, maybe, it would be a good idea to get some of the RMB RP to a higher quality standard and somewhere else, preferably somewhere I can help moderate or RP with them.
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Zukchiva
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Why are we here?
There is no perfect solution. Each choice that is made will backfire somewhat on RMB RP, but something must happen, must be done.

There are three main solutions being presented right now as of when I'm writing this.

1) Make another region for RMB RP, and moderate it.

2) Set up some sort of moderation in TEP to deal with RMB RP.

3) Leave RMB RP alone.

For point 1, I am fully against making such a region, because I feel that the RMB Rpers will seriously disagree with moving to such a region, as a violation of rights. Or even that TEP doesn't want them here. It probably is the second worse option for the government or anyone to do.

For point 2, this is something that's confusing me. Moderation is what the RMB needs I think, but what EXACTLY would the moderators well, moderate? Are you moderating so that people do not begin insulting each other OOCily? Or are you moderating RMB RP so that it is more realistic and has structure?

For point 3, just no. The RMB RP will continue the trend of making others leave, causing unnecessary drama, and ruining the image of TEP that the forefathers of this region have and had been working hard for the last 9 years for. This is the absolute worst option to choose.

I am giving tentative support to number 2 in the above mentioned points. However I will propose a new perspective of looking at the moderation issue.

I believe the best route is too set up two TEP RMB RPers who are active as RP mods and such. They should be well respected OOCily, and well known, and should not have any dramas or been the cause of one. I don't think they should be ROs (since that takes up valuable space), but should be mentioned in the WFE somewhere. Then these moderators will work together with the RMB RPers to set up rules, regulations, and how realistic or unrealistic it should be. The people who work with the moderators will be the whole of RMB RPers who are active and wish to have a say in setting up the new rules.
These "moderators" should then be able to tell others to follow the rules or be suppressed. If it comes for the need for someone to be suppressed, whether breaking the rmb rp rules, or causing drama that shouldn't be happening according to said rules, then the RMB RP mods should be able to ask an RO to suppress this person's posts, giving the RO due reason as to why it must happen.

If a rule needs to be changed, the RMB RPers can ask the RMB RP Moderators to change such a rule. Both RMB RP Moderators should agree to the changes, as well as some support from the RMB RPers, not necessarily a majority.

I think another thing is that if an RP Mod goes inactive, the RMB RP community should be able to question and ask for that Moderator to be removed, and a new one to be put in place.

As for what the mods will be enforcing, I think that should be decided by the RMB RPers when setting up the rules.

This is the solution I propose.

As for the hyper-activity of the RMB RP, I can't think of a solution to this other than moving to another region (which I am against) or banning it completely (which is definetly what everyone or most people agree should not happen). I'm also against the time-frame restrictions, as that just excludes people from RMB RP.
Edited by Zukchiva, Jul 13 2018, 04:40:02 PM.
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Nation of Elementia
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Face Plant!
Drachen
Jul 13 2018, 04:26:16 PM
Nation of Elementia
Jul 13 2018, 04:19:09 PM
Hello.
If you do know me, I was one of the players that left yesterday due to some... I don't wanna talk about it. The people that need to know what happened know what happened. And I am going to keep this short and simple.
1. I didn't not trash talk TEP. I would never think about that.
2. I will agree. The RMB RP is quite chaotic sometimes.

I tried helping with enacting the SA rule for which the RMB RP could follow to help prevent godmodders, but questions arose, and people got discouraged. I scrapped it, and people were OK.

The RMB RP, I feel like, just needs to run its course... and that's all I can say.

P.S. I am really sorry about what happened yesterday. I had a breakdown and didn't handle myself correctly. I don't even know why I came back. Some people were very relieved. I am very sorry, and I wish for that to never happen again. In my defense though (even though it is entirely my fault for not controlling myself), I was getting stressed. But it is my entire fault and I wish to not repeat these actions ever again.

-Elementia
"I am a refugee from TEP as I am not wanted there." I'm not sure how else to interpret this beyond your unfairly condensing TEP into being represented by a few questionable roleplayers. When you go into other regions and say this kind of stuff, whether it's fitting or not, it can have a negative effect.

Anyway, you are not the only one who has done something like this (Shavara had left with you) in the past, so it's not a centralized attack but more a request that this sort of behavior doesn't occur. Instead of doing stuff like this, you need to come to active regional officers such as myself or Pakitsk. We are here to help and to ensure that you don't experience these sorts of negative feelings or feel the need to leave.
I wasn't trying to... be like that.. and I will take full blame if anything negative happens.

And I'm trying. I am honestly am. I'm trying to keep my behavior under control. If anything like this happens again, I don't deserve to come back. I will make sure it doesn't happen again. I am sorry Drachen.
And I would like to talk to you or Pakitsk about something though, so just contact me when you can.

Thank you.
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Hey! Just because I'm short doesn't mean I can't fight!

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United Massachusetts
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If we are setting up moderation for the RP on the RMB (or for the RMB in general), the moderators ought to be elected from WA members on the RMB. This has a triple effect--it reduces stress on the regional officials to navigate the fast-paced RMB, increases trust between the region and its RP community, and promotes WA membership.

If doing so is impossible (HINT: it isn't), the next-best option would be to do nothing (as opposed to setting up another region).

For reference, I saw a TSPer post on the RMB the following, paraphrased:

"RP on the RMB is allowed here? Maybe that's why you're so popular."

RMB roleplay makes TEP more visible, more popular to the average nation, and has done good to regional stats.
Edited by United Massachusetts, Jul 13 2018, 04:42:32 PM.
United Massachusetts
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To fall in love with God is the greatest romance; to seek Him the greatest adventure; to find Him, the greatest human achievement. -St. Augustine of Hippo
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Drachen
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Yare yare dawa...
United Massachusetts
Jul 13 2018, 04:38:45 PM
If we are setting up moderation for the RP on the RMB (or for the RMB in general), the moderators ought to be elected from WA members on the RMB. This has a triple effect--it reduces stress on the regional officials to navigate the fast-paced RMB, increases trust between the region and its RP community, and promotes WA membership.
I already have some candidates in mind, but upon review of the regional officer list, we are effectively strangled by the requirement for Viziers to hold a position. I am entertaining the idea of proposing to the Magisterium that this be either amended or removed so as to ensure we have active and invested players holding rank.
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Zukchiva
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United Massachusetts
Jul 13 2018, 04:38:45 PM
If we are setting up moderation for the RP on the RMB (or for the RMB in general), the moderators ought to be elected from WA members on the RMB. This has a triple effect--it reduces stress on the regional officials to navigate the fast-paced RMB, increases trust between the region and its RP community, and promotes WA membership.
I think this is an excellent idea However I think it's best if the RMB RP mods don't have "terms", but instead remain as mods until they go inactive or something happens in which they have to be removed from the position.

I think a poll would work well in deciding rmb rp mods. As for being WA, that is a deviously smart move and I am for it, but it something should be put in place to give exceptions, since there may be times where non-WA members may serve as better rmb rp mods than WA candidates.
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Drachen
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Roleplayer Moderator Rogueparagon (Succ) shared this message with me and requested I post it here to the forums as he is currently unable to access his account. The opinions in this post do not necessarily reflect my thoughts, only his entirely.

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Prole Confederation
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A Slime draws near, , ,
I'm hearing a lot of interesting ideas, proposals, and suggestions here.
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Zukchiva
Jul 13 2018, 04:44:30 PM
United Massachusetts
Jul 13 2018, 04:38:45 PM
If we are setting up moderation for the RP on the RMB (or for the RMB in general), the moderators ought to be elected from WA members on the RMB. This has a triple effect--it reduces stress on the regional officials to navigate the fast-paced RMB, increases trust between the region and its RP community, and promotes WA membership.
I think this is an excellent idea However I think it's best if the RMB RP mods don't have "terms", but instead remain as mods until they go inactive or something happens in which they have to be removed from the position.

I think a poll would work well in deciding rmb rp mods. As for being WA, that is a deviously smart move and I am for it, but it something should be put in place to give exceptions, since there may be times where non-WA members may serve as better rmb rp mods than WA candidates.
Firstly, I think it should be done in terms; otherwise, the point is defeated, particularly on the trust aspect. Most RMBers, I presume, aren't around for more than a year, and I think it makes more sense for all RMBers to be involved in the selection of moderators--it's the best way to promote trust.

As for WA membership, I oppose exceptions, as it also defeats the point--if an RMBer is that good, they're clearly committed. They should join the WA, particularly if they are modelling good residency.
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To fall in love with God is the greatest romance; to seek Him the greatest adventure; to find Him, the greatest human achievement. -St. Augustine of Hippo
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Prole Confederation
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A Slime draws near, , ,
Sounds like we have agreed to weeding out bad RP and bad behavior, and promoting more serious RP in other places.
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Zukchiva
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United Massachusetts
Jul 13 2018, 04:52:35 PM
Zukchiva
Jul 13 2018, 04:44:30 PM
United Massachusetts
Jul 13 2018, 04:38:45 PM
If we are setting up moderation for the RP on the RMB (or for the RMB in general), the moderators ought to be elected from WA members on the RMB. This has a triple effect--it reduces stress on the regional officials to navigate the fast-paced RMB, increases trust between the region and its RP community, and promotes WA membership.
I think this is an excellent idea However I think it's best if the RMB RP mods don't have "terms", but instead remain as mods until they go inactive or something happens in which they have to be removed from the position.

I think a poll would work well in deciding rmb rp mods. As for being WA, that is a deviously smart move and I am for it, but it something should be put in place to give exceptions, since there may be times where non-WA members may serve as better rmb rp mods than WA candidates.
Firstly, I think it should be done in terms; otherwise, the point is defeated, particularly on the trust aspect. Most RMBers, I presume, aren't around for more than a year, and I think it makes more sense for all RMBers to be involved in the selection of moderators--it's the best way to promote trust.

As for WA membership, I oppose exceptions, as it also defeats the point--if an RMBer is that good, they're clearly committed. They should join the WA, particularly if they are modelling good residency.
While I can see your point for the first part, I disagree with the second.

Many good RMB RPers have left the WA, however with urging from Pakitsk and other RMBers, they eventually returned their WA.

However a rumor has been going around lately that WA resolutions affect stats. Whether this rumor is true or not (I don't think it is), many RMB RPers have not joined the WA.

RMB RP is based on two stats, Scientific Advancement and Defence Forces, two general statistics that can be affected by a number of resolutions. Even if the rumor isn't true, the fear of loosing those stats and thus your power in RMB RP, and thus being more prone to invasion makes people loathe to join the WA. And I can say that no matter what happens, NS stats are going to stick with RMB RP. I personally dislike them, but the stats have been so embroiled into RMB RP that removing them might even turn RMB RP for the worse.

So unless this rumor is firmly disproven by the government or NS itself, aversion of join the WA will always be a thing in RMB RP.

Thus, why I feel exceptions must be made only in the cases when there are people who are Non-WA RMBER nation and will do better than ANY WA RMBer nation in the moderator position.
Edited by Zukchiva, Jul 13 2018, 05:04:02 PM.
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