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The East Pacific vs. Schwaggy
Topic Started: Jun 23 2004, 10:47:03 PM (520 Views)
Kelssek
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Hero of the Soviet Onion
The charges are:

Treason (endorsement swapping)
Treason (attempted coup)
Fraud

I'm starting a new trial because of the change in the charges, and because it was getting messy, and in case you have any evidence left over there, you have 24 hours to bring it here before it is deleted from the record. The previous trial will be considered a mistrial and anything said there by either prosecution or defence will be disregarded.
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Kelssek
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Hero of the Soviet Onion
And no offence to Caven, but the petition raised earlier for your removal is approved.

You are to remove yourself from this case.
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insane legends
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Insane Legends
On the charge of:

Treason (Endorsement swapping)

My client pleads - Guilty.

However due to changes in the law during this trial that leniency is considered. My client was ignorant of the rules of endorsement swapping, but was not attempting a coup. As I have stated before, ignorance is one thing, but with the rules and laws so far hidden in the small print of these forums, it is not reasonable to assume every nation will find them.

My client is prepared to drop UN status for a period of 6 months and report at regular intervals to the court as punishment for Endorsement swapping. If during this time my client breaks these terms, he understands that he will be immediately imprisoned and banished from the EP without further trial.

Please note:
Quote:
 
For the benefit of the court, my client pleads to the second charge of:

Treason (attempted coup)

Not Guilty.
As stated


On the new charge of Fraud, I wish to have this dismissed on two accounts.

Firstly, there was no rule or law covering this or stating its prohibition.
Secondly, it was done as respect for 1 Infinite Loop, my client was claiming to be part of 1 Infinite Loop's East Pacific. The message was still signed by my client, so it was clear that he was not claiming to be 1IL. His signature was 'convieniently' not included in the 'quote' provided by the defence!

Insane Legends
W&S
Public Defence

Game over - goodbye!
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Kelssek
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Hero of the Soviet Onion
But doesn't it imply that he was working with the approval of Loop?

And all information is given under oath, are you accusing the prosecutor of perjury?

PROSECUTION:
Can the prosecution give any evidence that overthrow was intended?

The words used were "[I'm part of] 1 Infinite Loop's organization", since Loop is known to be the delegate of the East Pacific, doesn't this mean the same thing as "I'm part of the East Pacific", which was true at the time? If not, why not?
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Infinite Loop
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Take Off, Eh?
he was arrested under version one of the law (the EO) that is the one I will consider.

Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image

Endorsements recieved ( 69 ) : Cupertino, 1 Infinite Loop, 2 Infinite Loop, Infinite Loop, Bob Mckenzie, Shinagami, Shortbus, Magic Emperor Ghaelon, Ghaelon, SLAK, Prarie squid, Alys Whitill, The Cabin Grrrrl, The Cabin Girl, hax0rstan, Black Wolf Furries, Mr OWL, Vladimir Harkonnen, Uncle Duke, McTropolis, Avignon, Caesar Calligula, Max Zorin, Deus Ex Fiat, Walter Koenig, The True Reich, Atlanta Constitution, Fark Propaganda Corps, The Knights of Colombus, Fertile Sputniks, Jude Streicher,Otto Skorzeny, Nicholas der Kirchwass, Megalocyathus, Lil Megalocyathus, Uncle Toms Nation, Simon Legree, Yatta_, Lowtax, Patriotute, Doctor Zaius, General Ursus, Corneluis the ape, Nova the wild human, Bright eyes taylor, Dr Zira, Alex Chiu, Honkey the Goose, StandartenFuerher, Neko Mimi, The NS Invaders, Free n Accepted Masons.Miss Tessmacher, Hurricane Jezebel ,Rbt E Lee ,Dead Yankee ,U S Grant ,General Mead, Baron Karza, Rowdy Roddy Piper, Col Sanders, Aunt Jemimas witnesses, of the people Q, Le French Stereotypes, Qfdsdiozbnf, Alan Scott, Baltar the Traitor, Mok Mok the Jawa, space kraken,
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Kelssek
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Hero of the Soviet Onion
And is the plea bargain acceptable to the prosecution?
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Infinite Loop
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Take Off, Eh?
he may have beed doing this assuming he was part of the "Loop cadre"

he wasnt registered here until the 18th of june.
and he wasnt active, therefore amnesty does not apply.
note the quoted text.
"the bolded part of the EO"
 

Nations active on this offsite forum can be exempt from this policy, this is of course on a case by case basis, extenuating circumstances can negate such protection.
Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image

Endorsements recieved ( 69 ) : Cupertino, 1 Infinite Loop, 2 Infinite Loop, Infinite Loop, Bob Mckenzie, Shinagami, Shortbus, Magic Emperor Ghaelon, Ghaelon, SLAK, Prarie squid, Alys Whitill, The Cabin Grrrrl, The Cabin Girl, hax0rstan, Black Wolf Furries, Mr OWL, Vladimir Harkonnen, Uncle Duke, McTropolis, Avignon, Caesar Calligula, Max Zorin, Deus Ex Fiat, Walter Koenig, The True Reich, Atlanta Constitution, Fark Propaganda Corps, The Knights of Colombus, Fertile Sputniks, Jude Streicher,Otto Skorzeny, Nicholas der Kirchwass, Megalocyathus, Lil Megalocyathus, Uncle Toms Nation, Simon Legree, Yatta_, Lowtax, Patriotute, Doctor Zaius, General Ursus, Corneluis the ape, Nova the wild human, Bright eyes taylor, Dr Zira, Alex Chiu, Honkey the Goose, StandartenFuerher, Neko Mimi, The NS Invaders, Free n Accepted Masons.Miss Tessmacher, Hurricane Jezebel ,Rbt E Lee ,Dead Yankee ,U S Grant ,General Mead, Baron Karza, Rowdy Roddy Piper, Col Sanders, Aunt Jemimas witnesses, of the people Q, Le French Stereotypes, Qfdsdiozbnf, Alan Scott, Baltar the Traitor, Mok Mok the Jawa, space kraken,
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Kelssek
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Hero of the Soviet Onion
Yes, but can't the words be interpreted as "I'm part of the EP"?

And do you have any evidence of attempted coup?
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Infinite Loop
Member Avatar
Take Off, Eh?
the plea bargain sounds acceptable so far, however we need some assurance of his good intenitons
if he is willing to put this behind him and participate here, I will be all for it.
Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image

Endorsements recieved ( 69 ) : Cupertino, 1 Infinite Loop, 2 Infinite Loop, Infinite Loop, Bob Mckenzie, Shinagami, Shortbus, Magic Emperor Ghaelon, Ghaelon, SLAK, Prarie squid, Alys Whitill, The Cabin Grrrrl, The Cabin Girl, hax0rstan, Black Wolf Furries, Mr OWL, Vladimir Harkonnen, Uncle Duke, McTropolis, Avignon, Caesar Calligula, Max Zorin, Deus Ex Fiat, Walter Koenig, The True Reich, Atlanta Constitution, Fark Propaganda Corps, The Knights of Colombus, Fertile Sputniks, Jude Streicher,Otto Skorzeny, Nicholas der Kirchwass, Megalocyathus, Lil Megalocyathus, Uncle Toms Nation, Simon Legree, Yatta_, Lowtax, Patriotute, Doctor Zaius, General Ursus, Corneluis the ape, Nova the wild human, Bright eyes taylor, Dr Zira, Alex Chiu, Honkey the Goose, StandartenFuerher, Neko Mimi, The NS Invaders, Free n Accepted Masons.Miss Tessmacher, Hurricane Jezebel ,Rbt E Lee ,Dead Yankee ,U S Grant ,General Mead, Baron Karza, Rowdy Roddy Piper, Col Sanders, Aunt Jemimas witnesses, of the people Q, Le French Stereotypes, Qfdsdiozbnf, Alan Scott, Baltar the Traitor, Mok Mok the Jawa, space kraken,
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Infinite Loop
Member Avatar
Take Off, Eh?
the message provided by our Judge. is my main proof.
I am off to sleep.
later
Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image

Endorsements recieved ( 69 ) : Cupertino, 1 Infinite Loop, 2 Infinite Loop, Infinite Loop, Bob Mckenzie, Shinagami, Shortbus, Magic Emperor Ghaelon, Ghaelon, SLAK, Prarie squid, Alys Whitill, The Cabin Grrrrl, The Cabin Girl, hax0rstan, Black Wolf Furries, Mr OWL, Vladimir Harkonnen, Uncle Duke, McTropolis, Avignon, Caesar Calligula, Max Zorin, Deus Ex Fiat, Walter Koenig, The True Reich, Atlanta Constitution, Fark Propaganda Corps, The Knights of Colombus, Fertile Sputniks, Jude Streicher,Otto Skorzeny, Nicholas der Kirchwass, Megalocyathus, Lil Megalocyathus, Uncle Toms Nation, Simon Legree, Yatta_, Lowtax, Patriotute, Doctor Zaius, General Ursus, Corneluis the ape, Nova the wild human, Bright eyes taylor, Dr Zira, Alex Chiu, Honkey the Goose, StandartenFuerher, Neko Mimi, The NS Invaders, Free n Accepted Masons.Miss Tessmacher, Hurricane Jezebel ,Rbt E Lee ,Dead Yankee ,U S Grant ,General Mead, Baron Karza, Rowdy Roddy Piper, Col Sanders, Aunt Jemimas witnesses, of the people Q, Le French Stereotypes, Qfdsdiozbnf, Alan Scott, Baltar the Traitor, Mok Mok the Jawa, space kraken,
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Kelssek
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Hero of the Soviet Onion
For the record, this is the message -

The Dictatorship of Schwaggy
Received: 3 hours ago I'm part of the 1 Infinite Loop association.
I have endorsed your nation, I'd appreciate it if you would return the favor.
Thanks for your time and support.
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Kelssek
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Hero of the Soviet Onion
Another exchange that might be relevant:

From Message
The Empire of Schwaggy
Received: 2 minutes ago <sarcasm> Thanks for kicking me out of the region</sarcasm>

I have no desire to control the world, just to play the game...there's nothing more I can do with this game, but pick the lesser evil of choices from the issues that arrive, and collect endorsements. Seems your taking this a little too seriously. I am in no way or threat to your seniority in the East Pacific. I see now that it isn't so much co-operative play within a region, but everyone out for themselves, and expect a knee jeck over reaction when anything out of the ordinary happens, or even seems to happen.

I'll look for my "trial" in the forums..(not posted yet apparently???) where I assume the deck will be stacked against me and I'll get my pee pee smacked. Can't be disappointed when I expect the "worst" from the beginning, right?

I'm going to delete the other trial now.
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insane legends
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Insane Legends
Kelssek, just to explain your last post (and this is without my robe on - ie acting personally not as public defender).

The message was sent to you, before Scwaggy found his trial, so it is a little unfair to bring it up now, but also from talking to those accused, they feel genuinely saddened in RL about it.

Everyone 'here' needs to remember, that so many of the nations in EP don't look at this part of the game (ie the forums) there are a select group of what... 10 that reguarly contribute here....out of how many in the EP ? It is ashame, it is the best part of NS :) and we need to encourage more to get active in these pages.

But those that don't (the majority) or haven't. Are playing NS for fun, answering a few Qs, making friends and collecting endorsements without realising this is wrong. When they suddenly are sent to RR they often lose contact with friends they had made without realising they had been doing anything wrong, it is hard, it does actually upset them in RL....

We have made alot of progress here lately by changing the laws, however we need to educate our nations, make them feel much more part of these forums (I have ideas - unsurprisingly) and proud to be part of the East Pacific as run by Infinite Loop....

Game over - goodbye!
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Free Pacific States
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Number One Drone
I agree we have made a lot of progress, but we still have a lot of progress to make. Keep up the good work. Also, I would like to suggest leniency here...not only does he seem sorry, he's giving up his UN membership...how would he be a problem once that's done?

And as for my petition...nothing personal, Caven, but I do believe it necesary. I thank you, your honors, for considering and approving my request.
The Federated Alliance of Free Pacific States | Lyon Republic | Republic of Xiopothos | East Pacific Treaty Organization
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insane legends
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Insane Legends
(Continued in official role)

.....here is a case of someone who was proud to be one of Infinite Loops nations, he was proud because 1IL sent him a telegram telling him he was part of 1IL's East Pacific.....so proud he wanted to tell people.

His message was among a few variants of:

Quote:
 
I am part the The East Pacific/1 Infinite Loop association.

I have endorsed your nation. I would appreciate it if you would consider returning the favor.

Thanks for your time and assisstance.

Bob -- Supreme Ruler of Schwaggy


He does plead guilty to Endorsement swapping, but go and get someone else in your household....put them in front of your computer......put them on the main East Pacific page here.....and simply instuct them to find and tell you the rules of Endorsement swapping in the East Pacific.

How long does it take them ? Do they have the right answer ?

Whatever the answer.....please do try it, they have the advantage of knowing that they are looking for this rule / law

Scwaggy, like so many is unaware that he needed to 'search' for this law. He was proud to be part of 1IL's East Pacific a Region he wanted to be part of, be proud of and live in.....

There are those that may wish to dethrown 1IL, but Scwaggy is not one of them, to punish him at all is sad, but to punish an eager if naive supporter, is more so.

I conclude the defence.

Insane Legends
W&S
Public Defenders
Game over - goodbye!
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Kelssek
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Hero of the Soviet Onion
Prosecution has 24 hours to make any statement, then the verdict will be given.
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Infinite Loop
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Take Off, Eh?
I rest everything I have to add has been added.
Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image

Endorsements recieved ( 69 ) : Cupertino, 1 Infinite Loop, 2 Infinite Loop, Infinite Loop, Bob Mckenzie, Shinagami, Shortbus, Magic Emperor Ghaelon, Ghaelon, SLAK, Prarie squid, Alys Whitill, The Cabin Grrrrl, The Cabin Girl, hax0rstan, Black Wolf Furries, Mr OWL, Vladimir Harkonnen, Uncle Duke, McTropolis, Avignon, Caesar Calligula, Max Zorin, Deus Ex Fiat, Walter Koenig, The True Reich, Atlanta Constitution, Fark Propaganda Corps, The Knights of Colombus, Fertile Sputniks, Jude Streicher,Otto Skorzeny, Nicholas der Kirchwass, Megalocyathus, Lil Megalocyathus, Uncle Toms Nation, Simon Legree, Yatta_, Lowtax, Patriotute, Doctor Zaius, General Ursus, Corneluis the ape, Nova the wild human, Bright eyes taylor, Dr Zira, Alex Chiu, Honkey the Goose, StandartenFuerher, Neko Mimi, The NS Invaders, Free n Accepted Masons.Miss Tessmacher, Hurricane Jezebel ,Rbt E Lee ,Dead Yankee ,U S Grant ,General Mead, Baron Karza, Rowdy Roddy Piper, Col Sanders, Aunt Jemimas witnesses, of the people Q, Le French Stereotypes, Qfdsdiozbnf, Alan Scott, Baltar the Traitor, Mok Mok the Jawa, space kraken,
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caven
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Regional Judge
Kelssek
Jun 24 2004, 03:49 AM
And no offence to Caven, but the petition raised earlier for your removal is approved.

You are to remove yourself from this case.

Thats fine.
blah
NEOPETS
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Kelssek
Member Avatar
Hero of the Soviet Onion
Schwaggy, on the count of treason by attempted coup, you are found not guilty. The judges are deadlocked on the count of fraud.

Defendant will be allowed to re-enter the region, pending an outcome, and will be bound to the terms of the plea agreement. At this time I would also like to hear the punishment sought by the prosecution for the count of fraud.

(OOC, what should be done in this case? I don't think there's been any precedent or any rule set for a deadlock. With a real-life jury deadlock, it drags on until there's unanimity, but we obviously can't do that here.)
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Deleted User
Deleted User

Quote:
 
With a real-life jury deadlock, it drags on until there's unanimity


Lets review, unless the it drags out, and no concessions can be made in a feasable amount of time. Then a mis-trial is called, and a new jury is selected. Maybe you should familiarize yourself with legal procedings a bit more.

Since I still belive that the name usage was legitimate, and there is no reference to fraud in the charter or Senate resolutions, it should be thrown out as well. Also, initially this was called Defamation of Character, and now Fraud? I'm amazed that a charge can be held up, when it had no specific reference or designation from the start. One again, let me re-iterate that I am displeased that "laws" can be made up on the fly. Kind of undermines the process of having a charter, and the whole Senate resolution process, doesn't it?

source:Dictionary.com
Quote:
 
Main Entry: fraud
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin fraud- fraus
1 a : any act, expression, omission, or concealment calculated to deceive another to his or her disadvantage; specifically : a misrepresentation or concealment with reference to some fact material to a transaction that is made with knowledge of its falsity or in reckless disregard of its truth or falsity and with the intent to deceive another and that is reasonably relied on by the other who is injured thereby b : the affirmative defense of having acted in response to a fraud
2 : the crime or tort of committing fraud <convicted of securities fraud> —see also MISREPRESENTATION

also

fraud

Deception carried out for the purpose of achieving personal gain while causing injury to another party. For example, selling a new security issue while intentionally concealing important facts related to the issue is fraud.



Deception....I NEVER tried to impersonate, or SAY that I was 1IL, only part of his organisation, which, in my opinion, is entirely true.

Reckless disreagrd of truth...I dare anyone to say that this was my intent or purpose. I WAS part of The East Pacific, and I WAS invited by 1IL to be part of his coalition.

personal gain...Did I become more powerful or influential in any way fashon or form??? NO I DID NOT. I gained a slightly bigger number in the "endorsement received (xx)" block. Would someone explain to me what advantage that fact has afforded me in the game or otherwise?

injury...Is is pretty well spelled out in the definitions, that the party being frauded, must be INJURED....I see no way the 1IL can consider anything I've done to be injurous in any way to him personally, the East Pacific organization, or any co-alition consisting of any part of the forementioned.

Despite any decision made, I will not accept accept any form of punishment, nor probation of any kind.

Irrespective of this case, I have already recounted my membership from the UN, as I see no advantage, only restrictions, to being part of it. So forcing me to recind my UN membership for 6 month is moot.

It's pretty obvious to me that many holes have been shot into any argument against me.

Is a unanimous decision required from the deciding parties? Will a majority vote be enough, and if so, shouldn't there be an odd number of jurors, so a deadlock is impossible?

I'd like to recommend that if a "mis-trial" is deemed, within a period of 5 business days, and a new trial isn't feasable, or the juror pool isn't large enough to warrant a new trial with new jurors, that any and all charges be dropped. All freedoms to take my nation where I want, and administer my nation as I please, should be restored. Therby concluding this case in it's entirety.

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packilvania
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Caliph
Jsut to interject OOC:

We are pretty much the ONLY Pacific to give hearings/ have laws that everyone follows...
Of course there are going to be Loop-holes, but we try with what we have.
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insane legends
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Insane Legends
It should be noted there are normally an odd number of the jury, however one was removed as they had person involvement in bring this case and had provided evidence. The oversight that this may lead to a stalemate escaped us all.

I still fail to see how the case for Fraud is answerable, as stated before there are / were no laws on the subject all messages were 'signed off'

Quote:
 
Bob -- Supreme Ruler of Schwaggy


I again request that this charge is dropped. It is used as a learning curve, in the knowledge that there needs to be defined laws on the matter in future.

Insane Legends
W&S
Public Defenders
Game over - goodbye!
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Free Pacific States
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Number One Drone
I'd like to suggest that, in this case, a small jury be created in order to break the dead lock. These jurors would have to be totally nuetral towards the case, have been in no way involved with gathering evidence/defending/prosecuting, and would have to not currently be in an official in the justice system here. And of course, I'd like to volunteer, but since I filed against Caven in the first place, it may not be a great idea.
The Federated Alliance of Free Pacific States | Lyon Republic | Republic of Xiopothos | East Pacific Treaty Organization
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East Malaysia
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insane legends
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Insane Legends
While in principle the idea is great, but in reality to ask either non legally educated or potencially worse, puppet nations from those already here, to make a decision on a case that has already evolved, is beyond the fragile state of our current legal system.

I think the serious point was over whether Schwaggy was attempting a coup, which we have proved he was not. Now this issue should be laid to rest.

Allow Schwaggy to get on with his life.

It is bad enough that he is being asked to defend himself for a law that does not exist, without asking those that do not understand the law to defend a law that has not yet occured.

We can not expect a nation to 'guess' the future game plans of the region. To find Schwaggy guilty of fraud, is to say that we all accept that it may be illegal to talk in forums, to walk on two legs, to live, to breathe. The whole legal system can only work on existing law, when we find breaches, they must be patched....but end this insanity.

Let Schwaggy go free his daily business, without this need to volturise him.

W&S
Legal Defence
Game over - goodbye!
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Free Pacific States
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Number One Drone
Hey, don't yell at me. I was only proposing a simple soloution. And we would screen the jury to make sure that they weren't just puppets or uneducated people. And if they are...so what? You don't need to have a 3.5 grade point average to be a jurymen in RL, so why would you need on here?

But I'll leave it up to the judges to decide.
The Federated Alliance of Free Pacific States | Lyon Republic | Republic of Xiopothos | East Pacific Treaty Organization
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insane legends
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Insane Legends
LOL....me suggest the jury are suffering a simpleton syndrome.....never, allow them to agree to unmade law....let them study facts and legistration that does not exist.....

Still lets go further, they can read non existant facts about non existant laws and then make assumptions that lead to how Scwaggy is treated, my could they not behead him.....he must be a western terrorist.....hey lets behead him on live TV....better still lets make up new rules that allow the jury to behead him on live TV, while he is being made to drink battery acid.......

LAWS DO NOT EXIST....let it go, Schwaggy is not your puppet to play with....he is a real person. You can not simply make up a law to fit the crime then get a few extra judges in, to make it work.... this is not the middle east, all of you. Get a grip.

Game over - goodbye!
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Infinite Loop
Member Avatar
Take Off, Eh?
Schwaggy stated,

Quote:
 

All freedoms to take my nation where I want, and administer my nation as I please, should be restored. Therby concluding this case in it's entirety.


if this is how you wish it, I will Drop the charges however you will remain on teh ban list, as per the Precivilisation era of the EP (prior to the establishment of the current system of Laws)
Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image

Endorsements recieved ( 69 ) : Cupertino, 1 Infinite Loop, 2 Infinite Loop, Infinite Loop, Bob Mckenzie, Shinagami, Shortbus, Magic Emperor Ghaelon, Ghaelon, SLAK, Prarie squid, Alys Whitill, The Cabin Grrrrl, The Cabin Girl, hax0rstan, Black Wolf Furries, Mr OWL, Vladimir Harkonnen, Uncle Duke, McTropolis, Avignon, Caesar Calligula, Max Zorin, Deus Ex Fiat, Walter Koenig, The True Reich, Atlanta Constitution, Fark Propaganda Corps, The Knights of Colombus, Fertile Sputniks, Jude Streicher,Otto Skorzeny, Nicholas der Kirchwass, Megalocyathus, Lil Megalocyathus, Uncle Toms Nation, Simon Legree, Yatta_, Lowtax, Patriotute, Doctor Zaius, General Ursus, Corneluis the ape, Nova the wild human, Bright eyes taylor, Dr Zira, Alex Chiu, Honkey the Goose, StandartenFuerher, Neko Mimi, The NS Invaders, Free n Accepted Masons.Miss Tessmacher, Hurricane Jezebel ,Rbt E Lee ,Dead Yankee ,U S Grant ,General Mead, Baron Karza, Rowdy Roddy Piper, Col Sanders, Aunt Jemimas witnesses, of the people Q, Le French Stereotypes, Qfdsdiozbnf, Alan Scott, Baltar the Traitor, Mok Mok the Jawa, space kraken,
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Kelssek
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Hero of the Soviet Onion
It's hard to base this off real-world courts, because of the special situation we have.The jury idea can be worked on, but Schwaggy deserves not to have this drag on. It's hard to find an impartial jury from all of us. So, I have to flex a little juidicial power here.

By the principle of presumed innocence, the charge of fraud is hereby dismissed.

The defendant will be released and unbanned, the terms of the plea agreement for the first charge will take effect.

This matter is adjourned.
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