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| A discussion on the sacrifice of veterans | |
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| Topic Started: May 30 2005, 09:45:12 PM (698 Views) | |
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May 30 2005, 09:45:12 PM Post #1 |
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The Fluffy Horde
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These soldiers did a duty, and they didnt give a damn about the politics of the time. They did it, and fought for their own cause. And they should be given credit for that. That's what it's meant for. All those freedoms that we, as Americans, take for granted, are because of what past soldiers and what present soldiers are doing, fighting for the cause of freedom, liberty, and justice, and for a world safe from the clutches of tyranny and terrorism. |
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| Kelssek | May 31 2005, 07:54:11 AM Post #2 |
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Hero of the Soviet Onion
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The freedoms that Americans take for granted were established in the founding of their country - the American Revolution. None of the wars that the American government got involved in or started were about defending their own borders. Neither is any action the American military is currently engaged in helping to "stop terrorism" or "end tyranny" - those are excuses. We're just talking American military here, of course, some other countries have been at threat of their existance and fought it off with their armies. Here's a question - German soldiers in WW2 were involved in one of, if not the most horrific genocides in human history. Should they be admired for doing their duty as soldiers by gassing Jews? Wars are all about politics. Clothe it in glory and honour if you wish, but I believe that soldiers don't die for their country, they are murdered by their countries' politicians. I despise the military, but I honour the war dead because they are victims who have been used in the most despicable way - not because they "did their duty" or anything like that. EDIT: I realise that Memorial Day is taken quite seriously in the States, and I apologise if I have offended by the timing of my remarks. |
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| The Wachovia Coalition | May 31 2005, 09:20:19 AM Post #3 |
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They could have been better timed. |
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"Unity through humility" Currently in the region as Wachoviasa. "[NationStates] is like watching a movie that is Black Hawk Down vs. Lord of the Rings vs. Star Wars..." - New Fubaria | |
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| Kelssek | May 31 2005, 09:38:43 AM Post #4 |
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Hero of the Soviet Onion
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I didn't realise the occasion at first, but even had I done so I would probably still have said things to the same effect, if less confrontationally. If you never say anything because you are afraid someone might get mad, you spend a lot of time second-guessing responses and you never get your views out. All of us here respect and honour the war dead. I just disagree on the reasons why. I am always deeply moved by war memorials and such because I get angry that people died because they were manipulated and used by their leaders while their own countrymen were propagandised about it, and sad that they were used so and sent to their deaths because of politics and greed. When you actually see the names of the dead, name after name after name, you wonder how anyone can still want to start a war anymore. The reason I react so strongly to Govindia's view is that I don't think seeing soldiering and the military as honourable and glorious helps keep more wars from happening. As I said in the thing I wrote up for Kelssek's war memorial, we should be trying to ensure no names need to be added to the walls again. We should learn from the names on the walls instead of adding to them. |
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| Free Pacific States | May 31 2005, 10:59:57 AM Post #5 |
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Number One Drone
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Absoloutely not. But then, should we not honor the soldiers who fought to stop them? True, the US entered late, but just because the borders of a nation are not at risk does not mean the nation shouldn't get involved in a conflict. Politics aside, there are times when one must enter into a conflict. I admit, Iraq and Afghanistan aren't examples of this, period. But WWII certainly was, as was the Civil War (where both America's borders were under assault), and a number of other conflicts. I agree that some wars are pointless, Kellsek. But to dismiss all as political mass slaughters is...well, I can't think of an adjective at the moment. But you get the point. |
| The Federated Alliance of Free Pacific States | Lyon Republic | Republic of Xiopothos | East Pacific Treaty Organization | |
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| The Wachovia Coalition | May 31 2005, 11:04:55 AM Post #6 |
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Let's take care with this discussion. Emotions are intertwined on both sides. |
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"Unity through humility" Currently in the region as Wachoviasa. "[NationStates] is like watching a movie that is Black Hawk Down vs. Lord of the Rings vs. Star Wars..." - New Fubaria | |
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| Free Pacific States | May 31 2005, 01:31:24 PM Post #7 |
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Number One Drone
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Er...sorry if that came out wrong. It wasn't meant to be sarcastic or anything. I really couldn't think of an adjective at that moment, and needed to get to class... |
| The Federated Alliance of Free Pacific States | Lyon Republic | Republic of Xiopothos | East Pacific Treaty Organization | |
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| The Wachovia Coalition | May 31 2005, 01:38:23 PM Post #8 |
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My comment was a general one. Not trying to play the heavy. I just didn't want to see it spin out of control beyond what was said. |
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"Unity through humility" Currently in the region as Wachoviasa. "[NationStates] is like watching a movie that is Black Hawk Down vs. Lord of the Rings vs. Star Wars..." - New Fubaria | |
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| Krechzianko | May 31 2005, 02:26:23 PM Post #9 |
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Dictator of the Proletariat
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That was obviously a sick, sadistic thing to do. However, in their minds they were keeping their nation safe. I honor the dead from every nation and war, no matter what the circumstances. Those German troops in WWII were still patriots, especially those who fought for Germany and not for Hitler. While those who intentionally commit atrocitites should be punished, they still deserve respect as soldiers. As for respect of American dead, I always honor them. However, I agree that their deaths were often for totally useless conflicts. We cannot always say that they 'died for their country', because it's not always true. I was at the Vietnam Memorial on my recent trip to DC, and a large number of elementary students (Canadian, if I remember correctly) had left notes and poems. I felt both guilty and extremely angry when I read things like, "you died keeping your country safe", and "you served America before dying". Sadly, they didn't die doing any of those things. This was through no fault of their own, but I feel that we can't always say our troops died for a just cause. Of the list you gave above, I personally think that the majority were, unforunately, fought for the wrong reasons. The Indian Wars, War of 1812, Mexican, Spanish-American, Philippine and Moro, Korean, Vietnam, Lebanon, Grenada, Panama, Gulf, and Iraqi conflicts were all imperialistic ventures, in my opinion.
Uh...Canada wasn't involved... |
![]() "Not only does [Krech] have the tongue of a diplomat but a groove the ladies swoon over." -Soul Cancer "Krechziankans are known to simply disregard information to blow the shit outa someone they don't like." -FPS ![]()
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| Free Pacific States | May 31 2005, 02:42:31 PM Post #10 |
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Number One Drone
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The saddest thing is that those operations that seem the most justified went the worst. For instance,
Those eight people weren't killed in combat whilst trying to save US embassy workers, or shot down on the way there, or any such things. They died because, of the circa two dozen helicopters and aircraft involved in the operation, 3 planes and 1 helicopter slammed into each other during a sandstorm. The operation had to be aborted, because too many of the men were involved in saving survivors from the burning wrecks of a chinook, a C-130, and two other aircraft.
A total failure. Sure, as the Black Hawk Down film shows, we didn't get in too far over our heads, but we never truly accomplished our objective. When the US withdrew, Somalia was still in civil war, and warlords still had a lot of control over the nation. I mean...I just wish more of the more morally right operations would go off correctly... |
| The Federated Alliance of Free Pacific States | Lyon Republic | Republic of Xiopothos | East Pacific Treaty Organization | |
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| Codex | May 31 2005, 03:21:27 PM Post #11 |
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Arbiter of Succession
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I have to agree with Kelssek, to an extent. Whilst I wouldn't go so far as to say there are wars that must be fought, there are occasions where the path of military action is at least expedient. However, there exists particularly in America a military cult, as it were... events such as this 'Memorial Day' seem to be devoted to the veneration of soldiers simply for the fact that they were soldiers. I will refrain from commenting on the Iraq war, largely because it's been done many times before, but it is notable that in the run-up, there was significant exposition of support based on the principle that "If it does happen, we don't want to be seen not having supported the soldiers." This was even more evident during the war, when opposers were demonised with the idea that they were somehow betraying those who had been sent out to battle. Thus was actual discussion of the true merits of the war, the reasons for and against engaging in action, subjugated to this catechismal support for the soldier-cult. It all dates back, I suppose, to the idea of 'Dulce et Decorum'... which, whilst it may have been appropriate to the social climate of ancient Rome, seems to me outdated in the modern world. Blind patriotism... adhesion to the decisions of the government without critical thinking is not something to be venerated nor encouraged. There is, I will conceed, an argument to be made that it is possible both to disbelieve in the necessity for action yet believe in the necessity for obedience... it is, after all, one of the principles upon which modern society is founded. Nonetheless, I think simple observation of the armed forces - not, after all, known to be the intellectual elite - lends weight to the suggestion that, for a great many of those serving in the military, particularly in lower ranks, their decision to do so has not been influenced by any enlightened social thinking, but by the quasi-religious faith in what would in England past have been referred to as "King and Country" and which has been recast by the recent American leadership as "freedom, liberty, and justice". Neither are in any way significant as argument nor pertinent in their own right; merely symbols, access keys to the underlying national religion instilled in a large majority of the populace. Moving briefly on to a point that FPS made... " Well then, let today be an honor to the people who died for what they believed in; mislead though they may or may not have been... which is all very well, I believe, and more commendable than the matter of simply dying for one's country. Yet the very same argument would require you to respect those German soldiers working in the concentration camps; or, at least, the subset who believed in their cause, of which I contend there would have been some - Adolf Hitler, for one. I would always respect people's right to hold whatever beliefs they wish... no matter how ill-thought out, or idiotic they are... yet I wouldn't contend that people should be commended for acting on those beliefs, heartfelt though those actions may be. I'm sure those members of the KKK who carry out lynchings are doing what they truly believe to be right... yet I would in no way commend them for this action. It remains, then, that the only real action I can see worth in venerating is that carried out by those who, in consideration, have conviction in the necessity of their action, and which action I agree with. Which is a far stricter criterion than the initial one, and which I feel gets across the point I am trying to make, which is that blind veneration, without true consideration for the actions being committed or the reasoning behind them is hardly commendable. At best, perhaps, as Blanchettia has it, such events can be used to remember the dead - particularly those close to you - in general, however they died. |
Our Superiority is not a Complex
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| Republic of Blanchettia | May 31 2005, 03:35:09 PM Post #12 |
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"Carpe Diem" - Seize the day, EP Chief Auto Expert
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*******claps******** Finally, someone who's following my train of thought |
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Sincerely yours, Daniel Blanchette Blanchettian Ambassador to the East Pacific Community Blanchettian Ambassador to the UN
Quote from an episode of "As Time Goes By". Official Homepage of the Government of the Republic of Blanchettia (still being developed) Anxiety is a sign that G-d didn't intend you to do that in the first place.
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May 31 2005, 04:37:53 PM Post #13 |
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The Fluffy Horde
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War of 1812 - there's a reason it's called our Second War of Independence Korea - went in to drive the north out of the south, additional objectives aside Vietnam - attempted to do same thing Lebanon - UN peacekeeping mission Grenada - overthrow of a dictator government, same with Panama - that's why we were cheered at both areas. Gulf War - Kuwait was illegally invaded and iraq was being a prick. |
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May 31 2005, 04:40:50 PM Post #14 |
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The Fluffy Horde
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Keep in mind, this is a TRIBUTE TO THE FALLEN and CURRENTLY SERVING because I support the military and our armed forces whole-heartedly. They have a job to do, and instead of riding on their case, at least respect in whole, in general, what they are doing for us. Had I not had a medical condition that'd prevent me from serving, I'd also be serving in the armed forces as well..... |
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| Quy | May 31 2005, 06:12:37 PM Post #15 |
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Artist of the Pacifics
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All I can say is "war is sad!" |
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| Kelssek | May 31 2005, 08:19:31 PM Post #16 |
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Hero of the Soviet Onion
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I have a whole list of issues with Govindia's response, but I don't want to be seen as badgering someone over their beliefs on an emotional occasion. Suffice to say that you are wrong about Panama, Korea, and Vietnam, and that the War of 1812 began with the American invasion of Canada and was not really threatening to America's independence because the British troops had been ordered not to occupy territory. |
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May 31 2005, 08:22:16 PM Post #17 |
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The Fluffy Horde
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No i'm not wrong about what I said, and it started when British forces began attacking our merchant ships, then they invaded our shores and attacked Boston and Washington. If you want to debate politics, do it elsewhere, but not in this thread, when my original purpose was to honour those that fell, and those that are still serving, as a sign of respect, as an American, to the armed forces. Regardless of political affiliateion, you can still honour those that served and gave their lives, and those that are still serving, out of respect, if nothing else. |
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| Krechzianko | May 31 2005, 08:27:06 PM Post #18 |
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Dictator of the Proletariat
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Okaaay...1812 was semi-imperialist. Korea was a purely anti-communist, pro-capitalist imperial venture. Same with Vietnam. Lebanon...yeah, you're probably right; I dunno as much about modern military history. Grenada was simply to keep Cuba from gaining influence. Panama: a CIA agent wasn't playing by our rules anymore, so we invaded. Gulf: we give Saddam weapons and then realize that he may gain access to our precious oil. |
![]() "Not only does [Krech] have the tongue of a diplomat but a groove the ladies swoon over." -Soul Cancer "Krechziankans are known to simply disregard information to blow the shit outa someone they don't like." -FPS ![]()
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| The Wachovia Coalition | May 31 2005, 08:45:11 PM Post #19 |
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Thread split. Discuss your beliefs regarding war here. |
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"Unity through humility" Currently in the region as Wachoviasa. "[NationStates] is like watching a movie that is Black Hawk Down vs. Lord of the Rings vs. Star Wars..." - New Fubaria | |
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| Free Pacific States | Jun 1 2005, 12:27:59 PM Post #20 |
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Number One Drone
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Is that a bad thing? Last I heard, Cuba was a dictatorship. |
| The Federated Alliance of Free Pacific States | Lyon Republic | Republic of Xiopothos | East Pacific Treaty Organization | |
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| Krechzianko | Jun 1 2005, 02:55:04 PM Post #21 |
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Dictator of the Proletariat
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I'm afraid you're sorta wrong. Cuba is a country that has made incredible progress in the last 50 years. America's image of Castro as a crazed, bloodthirsty dictator couldn't be further from the truth. Until the fifties, Cuba was, of course, ruled by the capitalist American puppet Batista. He was effectively under the control of casino owners, the mob, and the US government. He allowed poor farmers and factory workers to be used as slaves while killing political opponents. When Castro, Guevara, and the rest of the revolutionaries landed near Santiago, they were welcomed by the peasantry. The army fought weakly and many troops sided with the rebels. Batista fled the country, and thousands of rich landowners escaped to Miami. Not long after, Castro was in Havana. His government made strong reforms, especially in the fields of healthcare and education (Cuba has some of the best doctors and hospitals in the world). We get such a bad impression of Cuba because many of the Cuban-Americans who came here were bourgeois landowners and businessmen. They hated Catro's regime because it stripped them of their land and wealth. The many poor citizens of Cuba who are much better off than they were in the fifties have no reason to come to America. Castro's government actually has relatively free elections (some local elections are still rigged). Cuba has made great economic advances despite America's stubborn blockades and sanctions, as well. The nation is ahead of us in gay rights and many other aspects of civil rights. The only thing Castro does that's even remotely dictatorial is the occasional silencing of young, America-obsessed dissidents (and he doesn't use open violence or murder to do this). The leadership actually allow opposition parties to take root and participate in elections. |
![]() "Not only does [Krech] have the tongue of a diplomat but a groove the ladies swoon over." -Soul Cancer "Krechziankans are known to simply disregard information to blow the shit outa someone they don't like." -FPS ![]()
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| Republic of Blanchettia | Jun 1 2005, 05:36:30 PM Post #22 |
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"Carpe Diem" - Seize the day, EP Chief Auto Expert
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That's weird. The last that I've ever heard of Cuba was that Cubans hated the Americans because of the god-awful Platt Amendment. Although Cuba is relatively communist, Castro allows some free enterprise to operate, but is completely regulated so that they wouldn't compete with, say, state stores and state restaurants, i.e. Cuba, I'd have to admit, DOES have a good railway system (and is the only Caribbean island to have a railway system) and a good health-care system, but most Cubans are still relatively impoverished. Most cars on the road are either 1950s-1960s American cars or 1960s-late 1980s Soviet cars, yet petrol is in short supply. Castro is going to try to make a deal with Venezuela (who has that dictator of a President called Hugo Chavez) to get some Venezuelan oil in Cuba (and who knows, maybe even a few BANNED Ford Explorers (banned in Venezuela because of the Firestone tire scandal). In addition, Cuba is turning into a tourist hotspot, yet the casino operators are back in business in Cuba. Will Cuba be among the last communist dictatorships overthrown? So long as Castro is in power, probably not, but after Castro's death, maybe. |
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Sincerely yours, Daniel Blanchette Blanchettian Ambassador to the East Pacific Community Blanchettian Ambassador to the UN
Quote from an episode of "As Time Goes By". Official Homepage of the Government of the Republic of Blanchettia (still being developed) Anxiety is a sign that G-d didn't intend you to do that in the first place.
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| Krechzianko | Jun 1 2005, 07:21:15 PM Post #23 |
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Dictator of the Proletariat
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I really don't think their cars have anything to do with national strength, though.
Actually, Chavez was democratically elected. I love him for standing up to American imperialism and calling Bush a "moron". More power to him, I say!
I agree to an extent, but they are far better off than they were under Batista, the Americans, or the Spanish. |
![]() "Not only does [Krech] have the tongue of a diplomat but a groove the ladies swoon over." -Soul Cancer "Krechziankans are known to simply disregard information to blow the shit outa someone they don't like." -FPS ![]()
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| Free Pacific States | Jun 1 2005, 07:42:12 PM Post #24 |
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Number One Drone
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Got me there, Krech. |
| The Federated Alliance of Free Pacific States | Lyon Republic | Republic of Xiopothos | East Pacific Treaty Organization | |
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| Infinite Loop | Jun 2 2005, 12:40:03 AM Post #25 |
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Take Off, Eh?
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I used to have a dream of conquoring cuba and making it my own little country, |
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| Catophilia | Jun 2 2005, 05:17:08 PM Post #26 |
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I think that while there may be credible arguments for these analyses of our nation's motivations for entering Kora and Vietman, ascribing them to individual veterans is a classic example of a logical error called the fallacy of multiplication. If you will let some veterans of these conflicts tell you their stories in their own words, I believe you will find that they went believing they were going to relieve an underdog population threatened by a foreign agressor, or simply because their country asked them to go. I find it very moving to think of these very young people putting themselves at mortal risk for such selfless reasons, and feel strongly that their sacrifices should be honored whether we agree with a certain military action or not. BB Code fixed by Free Pacific States. |
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| Krechzianko | Jun 2 2005, 05:26:42 PM Post #27 |
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Dictator of the Proletariat
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Oh, I am certainly not attributing America's mistakes to individual veterans. Our original discussion from a previous thread branched into one about America's many conflicts. I always blame the people who start wars, not those who fight them. |
![]() "Not only does [Krech] have the tongue of a diplomat but a groove the ladies swoon over." -Soul Cancer "Krechziankans are known to simply disregard information to blow the shit outa someone they don't like." -FPS ![]()
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Jun 2 2005, 10:32:47 PM Post #28 |
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The Fluffy Horde
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then does despising the military mean despising say, the police, and other paramilitary forces, becuase they follow a military model.... Not all wars deal with politics. |
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Jun 2 2005, 10:36:36 PM Post #29 |
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The Fluffy Horde
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1812 was not imperialist in any way, nor was korea or viet nam Both South Korea and South Viet Nam asked us for help to drive out their northern neighbours - we achieved that in korea but not in viet nam, neither was an imperialistic venture. YOu yourself admitted you do not know much about military history as I do, so I suggest you read up before discussing it w*Republic of Govindia again. |
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Jun 2 2005, 10:42:25 PM Post #30 |
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The Fluffy Horde
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See this is what bothers me at times Most liberals and socialists I've dealt with at RIT are ignorant in what they say and politicise the deaths of soldiers or something, that it's the administration's fault etc. Especially with recent incidents regarding only a few soldiers. What is done by a few soldiers does not reflect on the military as a whole. America, while it has engaged in active military conflicts, has more often than not used their military for humanitarian purposes - I.E. peacekeeping in Haiti, Liberia, Afghanistan, East TImor, Kosovo, Bosnia, and recently the tsunami hit areas - they were the only ones that were able to reach Aceh province in Indonesia after it hit, while no other country, not even Indonesia, could get to the Acehnese to deliver aid. The military is good in it's values, it's code, it's duty, and it's honour. As I said before, if I was not medically ineligible, I'd join ROTC, or the Reserve/Natl. Guard. |
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