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| The Gryphons; a discussion of possibilities | |
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| Topic Started: Jun 16 2005, 03:11:30 PM (233 Views) | |
| The Wachovia Coalition | Jun 16 2005, 03:11:30 PM Post #1 |
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I know, Thytira, that you are quite eager to have The East Pacific join the order. Though you have been subdued in our conversation, you don't hesitate to bring up the matter repeatedly. I have an idea I've spoken to Loop about in the past that I'd like you to consider in private and this seemed the easiest way. The next few posts will further flesh out what I had in mind, but you're welcome to respond before that. For this discussion, only Loop, myself and you are in the room. |
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"Unity through humility" Currently in the region as Wachoviasa. "[NationStates] is like watching a movie that is Black Hawk Down vs. Lord of the Rings vs. Star Wars..." - New Fubaria | |
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| Infinite Loop | Jun 16 2005, 10:03:28 PM Post #2 |
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Take Off, Eh?
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Ill tell you now, I was invited to join a few days ago, Bight even made a account for me, but Im leery of two things, First Im not too sure about a place that would actually have me, and B, there are too many old ADN members there for my taste, I did point out that their 7 knightly virtues are kinda Non virtuous and directed Bight to the real ones. :cupocoffee: |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Endorsements recieved ( 69 ) : Cupertino, 1 Infinite Loop, 2 Infinite Loop, Infinite Loop, Bob Mckenzie, Shinagami, Shortbus, Magic Emperor Ghaelon, Ghaelon, SLAK, Prarie squid, Alys Whitill, The Cabin Grrrrl, The Cabin Girl, hax0rstan, Black Wolf Furries, Mr OWL, Vladimir Harkonnen, Uncle Duke, McTropolis, Avignon, Caesar Calligula, Max Zorin, Deus Ex Fiat, Walter Koenig, The True Reich, Atlanta Constitution, Fark Propaganda Corps, The Knights of Colombus, Fertile Sputniks, Jude Streicher,Otto Skorzeny, Nicholas der Kirchwass, Megalocyathus, Lil Megalocyathus, Uncle Toms Nation, Simon Legree, Yatta_, Lowtax, Patriotute, Doctor Zaius, General Ursus, Corneluis the ape, Nova the wild human, Bright eyes taylor, Dr Zira, Alex Chiu, Honkey the Goose, StandartenFuerher, Neko Mimi, The NS Invaders, Free n Accepted Masons.Miss Tessmacher, Hurricane Jezebel ,Rbt E Lee ,Dead Yankee ,U S Grant ,General Mead, Baron Karza, Rowdy Roddy Piper, Col Sanders, Aunt Jemimas witnesses, of the people Q, Le French Stereotypes, Qfdsdiozbnf, Alan Scott, Baltar the Traitor, Mok Mok the Jawa, space kraken, | |
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| Thyatira | Jun 17 2005, 10:33:58 AM Post #3 |
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To begin, I apologize for my zeal. I do bring up the Gryphons too often. As to the Virtues of the Order, they are based on Revelation V:12
These were selected by me in April last year when the Order began as a spin-off of my first nation of New Thyatira. Thy has always been styled as a modern "Crusader State." That is, what if any of the four Countries established during the Crusades had survived to the present. However, I agree that these are not (not all of them anyway) particularly Virtuous. In the original thread on the TNPs2 Forum, less than a month after advertising the Order, on May 9, 2004, I stated this:
Reading through some of the applications for various Members, you'll be able to compile a rather different list. Applicants mention Honesty, Loyalty, Patience, etc. And these are certainly laudable traits. I hope that addresses the Virtues matter, or helps to. As to the ADN, I am not sure of the ADN roster -- having quit that organization long ago. I only know of one active ADN member participating in the Gryphons. Rest assured that I will personally not tolerate any feuds within the Order -- particularly if they are motivated by pro- (or anti-) ADN sentiment. The Order is, first and foremost, a Fellowship. |
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| The Wachovia Coalition | Jun 17 2005, 11:25:21 AM Post #4 |
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I'm glad you brought up that last quote. It's what really inspired my current thinking. As we look at TEP's present state in regards to the order there are a few concerns: 1. Can we open our doors to it without encourage military movements and violating our stated nuetrality? 2. Can we open our doors to it without risking influence by a group that would love to have control here and really destory the current culture? 3. Can we partner in such a way as to truly encourage something positive and not just another division of people? I think these things can be addressed. They are not insurmountable. As you point out, the ADN involvement is generally limited and the military group is volunteer and not organized for formal military aid. The last concern is still somewhat there in my mind as I see the order still has a general lack of direction. If I were a disengaged member, I'd still be waiting for a leader to tell me what to do for example. |
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"Unity through humility" Currently in the region as Wachoviasa. "[NationStates] is like watching a movie that is Black Hawk Down vs. Lord of the Rings vs. Star Wars..." - New Fubaria | |
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| The Wachovia Coalition | Jun 17 2005, 11:34:08 AM Post #5 |
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Why did I focus on that quote though? Let's consider a few "what-ifs." What if The East Pacific were to establish a clan of samauri? What if it borrowed heavily from the noble codes of past samauri, with some modification for greater emphasis on peaceful pursuits and respect for other? What if this clan was recognized as one of those groups that held similar values and was place on par with a regional chapter? What if the clan was led by a daimyo (similar to a European baron) who swore allegience to the Emperor (Loop uses this title for his current national leader already) and alliance to the head of the chancery through Imperial decree? What if the clan were allowed to participate in the joint actions of the Hospitallars especially, but maybe in the areas of the chancery as liaisons and the militant stricly as advisors on defensive practices? |
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"Unity through humility" Currently in the region as Wachoviasa. "[NationStates] is like watching a movie that is Black Hawk Down vs. Lord of the Rings vs. Star Wars..." - New Fubaria | |
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| The Wachovia Coalition | Jun 17 2005, 11:38:19 AM Post #6 |
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The immeadiate benefits I see... 1. No worry about divided loyalties or accidentally helping a misguided defender action. 2. Incoporates the regional culture much better 3. Allows you folks to have fun helping us create a whole new line of heraldry based on Japanes samauri flags. example 1 example 2 4. Still centers the group around the core values of mutual respect and pursuit of good. 5. Still gives you some authority in the matter so the order's name is not abused. |
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"Unity through humility" Currently in the region as Wachoviasa. "[NationStates] is like watching a movie that is Black Hawk Down vs. Lord of the Rings vs. Star Wars..." - New Fubaria | |
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| Thyatira | Jun 17 2005, 12:23:55 PM Post #7 |
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The lack of direction is a lamentable side-effect of my being off-line for several months at the end of last year. The Order is now addressing things that should have been dealt with just before that hiatus began. The Hospitallers have, however, been very active in attempting to address the TNP instability. The Chapter of Samurai is a wonderful idea, and it would allow members to utilize Japanese mon in lieu of European heraldry. A Clan of Samurai might ally not only the Chancery and Hospitallers, but with the Militants too (with the Emperor's permission. There would be no reason why any individual Samurai should be precluded from participating in the Honor Guard, once we get those rules ironed out. It is my understanding that EastPac has no standing military. Thus, a Knight (Samurai) from an EastPac Chapter would not draw strength away from your Region if he were to participate in the Honor Guard for a month... All in all, I do like the Samurai idea. But it sounds like a Sister organization unless it is styled as the East Pacific Keima. "Keima" is the word for the Knight in Shogi, or Japanese Chess. Within the East Pacific, they could be seen as Samurai. Within the Order, I would prefer to call them Knights or Keima. I think I see at the root of this a problem in the vein of "A man cannot serve two masters." And certainly I feel that fealty to one's own sovereign and region should come before fidelity to the Order. This is partly why I do not issue commands within the Order. I cannot accept a Knighthood that makes requirements on its Membership as I view one's nation as a form of self-expression (or of fantasy). I cannot see how it would be right to curtail self-expression. You have no doubt noticed how many Gryphons place the Order's icons in their Sigs on various forums. This is by choice, rather than command. The only benefit a Knight receives from so doing it the receipt of the title "Masterknight." It is a matter of pride in one's membership. As to military movements, the Knights-Militant have an unfortunate name with respect to the EastPac. We are not an army. The Kts-Mil are named for the Templars and other militant Order from history. Those involved in that Branch are very intrigued by the prospect of having our Honor Guard become an interesting exercise: the practice of periodically stationing a UN nation within the Order's own Region for the accrual of in-Knighthood honors. These would not be military movements in the strictest sense of NationStates. And certainly our own Region is not intended to be used as a staging area for movements to other Regions. Your concerns that a group would destroy your culture is a good one. I have the same concerns when different Regions apply to have their own Chapters added. In this respect, rest assured that the Order has no intent to influence or destroy the East Pacific. |
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| Thyatira | Jun 17 2005, 12:34:04 PM Post #8 |
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In case you're interested, the term Narikei is used for a promoted Keima in Shogi. Narikei, then, could be the EastPac equivalent of Masterknight. |
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| Infinite Loop | Jun 17 2005, 09:34:09 PM Post #9 |
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Take Off, Eh?
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If the EP were to form a chapter, I support the Samurai group, as ti fits our culture, I personally claim the Manji baner of Suda as Mine, or Perhaps the IMperial Chrysanthemum |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Endorsements recieved ( 69 ) : Cupertino, 1 Infinite Loop, 2 Infinite Loop, Infinite Loop, Bob Mckenzie, Shinagami, Shortbus, Magic Emperor Ghaelon, Ghaelon, SLAK, Prarie squid, Alys Whitill, The Cabin Grrrrl, The Cabin Girl, hax0rstan, Black Wolf Furries, Mr OWL, Vladimir Harkonnen, Uncle Duke, McTropolis, Avignon, Caesar Calligula, Max Zorin, Deus Ex Fiat, Walter Koenig, The True Reich, Atlanta Constitution, Fark Propaganda Corps, The Knights of Colombus, Fertile Sputniks, Jude Streicher,Otto Skorzeny, Nicholas der Kirchwass, Megalocyathus, Lil Megalocyathus, Uncle Toms Nation, Simon Legree, Yatta_, Lowtax, Patriotute, Doctor Zaius, General Ursus, Corneluis the ape, Nova the wild human, Bright eyes taylor, Dr Zira, Alex Chiu, Honkey the Goose, StandartenFuerher, Neko Mimi, The NS Invaders, Free n Accepted Masons.Miss Tessmacher, Hurricane Jezebel ,Rbt E Lee ,Dead Yankee ,U S Grant ,General Mead, Baron Karza, Rowdy Roddy Piper, Col Sanders, Aunt Jemimas witnesses, of the people Q, Le French Stereotypes, Qfdsdiozbnf, Alan Scott, Baltar the Traitor, Mok Mok the Jawa, space kraken, | |
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| The Wachovia Coalition | Jun 18 2005, 01:32:18 AM Post #10 |
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Ok then, let me draft up a few things and then we can go from there. |
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"Unity through humility" Currently in the region as Wachoviasa. "[NationStates] is like watching a movie that is Black Hawk Down vs. Lord of the Rings vs. Star Wars..." - New Fubaria | |
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| Thyatira | Jun 18 2005, 02:25:28 AM Post #11 |
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To avoid potential confusion, EP Applicants (when/if there are some) will be addressed as Knights. The terms they use for themselves in the EP Forum is up to you guys. |
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| Infinite Loop | Jun 18 2005, 02:35:01 AM Post #12 |
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Take Off, Eh?
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Addressing us as Knights will kinda defeat the purpose
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![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Endorsements recieved ( 69 ) : Cupertino, 1 Infinite Loop, 2 Infinite Loop, Infinite Loop, Bob Mckenzie, Shinagami, Shortbus, Magic Emperor Ghaelon, Ghaelon, SLAK, Prarie squid, Alys Whitill, The Cabin Grrrrl, The Cabin Girl, hax0rstan, Black Wolf Furries, Mr OWL, Vladimir Harkonnen, Uncle Duke, McTropolis, Avignon, Caesar Calligula, Max Zorin, Deus Ex Fiat, Walter Koenig, The True Reich, Atlanta Constitution, Fark Propaganda Corps, The Knights of Colombus, Fertile Sputniks, Jude Streicher,Otto Skorzeny, Nicholas der Kirchwass, Megalocyathus, Lil Megalocyathus, Uncle Toms Nation, Simon Legree, Yatta_, Lowtax, Patriotute, Doctor Zaius, General Ursus, Corneluis the ape, Nova the wild human, Bright eyes taylor, Dr Zira, Alex Chiu, Honkey the Goose, StandartenFuerher, Neko Mimi, The NS Invaders, Free n Accepted Masons.Miss Tessmacher, Hurricane Jezebel ,Rbt E Lee ,Dead Yankee ,U S Grant ,General Mead, Baron Karza, Rowdy Roddy Piper, Col Sanders, Aunt Jemimas witnesses, of the people Q, Le French Stereotypes, Qfdsdiozbnf, Alan Scott, Baltar the Traitor, Mok Mok the Jawa, space kraken, | |
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| Thyatira | Jun 18 2005, 09:50:18 AM Post #13 |
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I'll wait to see what Wach has before I comment further. |
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| The Wachovia Coalition | Jun 19 2005, 07:05:52 PM Post #14 |
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ok, take a gander
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"Unity through humility" Currently in the region as Wachoviasa. "[NationStates] is like watching a movie that is Black Hawk Down vs. Lord of the Rings vs. Star Wars..." - New Fubaria | |
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| Infinite Loop | Jun 19 2005, 09:47:34 PM Post #15 |
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Take Off, Eh?
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I like it, as Thyat, (we have a bad habit of trunicating folks names, In the east, ) stated about gryphons using the Gryph titles for samurai, it would be funny if we called samurain by our titles. |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Endorsements recieved ( 69 ) : Cupertino, 1 Infinite Loop, 2 Infinite Loop, Infinite Loop, Bob Mckenzie, Shinagami, Shortbus, Magic Emperor Ghaelon, Ghaelon, SLAK, Prarie squid, Alys Whitill, The Cabin Grrrrl, The Cabin Girl, hax0rstan, Black Wolf Furries, Mr OWL, Vladimir Harkonnen, Uncle Duke, McTropolis, Avignon, Caesar Calligula, Max Zorin, Deus Ex Fiat, Walter Koenig, The True Reich, Atlanta Constitution, Fark Propaganda Corps, The Knights of Colombus, Fertile Sputniks, Jude Streicher,Otto Skorzeny, Nicholas der Kirchwass, Megalocyathus, Lil Megalocyathus, Uncle Toms Nation, Simon Legree, Yatta_, Lowtax, Patriotute, Doctor Zaius, General Ursus, Corneluis the ape, Nova the wild human, Bright eyes taylor, Dr Zira, Alex Chiu, Honkey the Goose, StandartenFuerher, Neko Mimi, The NS Invaders, Free n Accepted Masons.Miss Tessmacher, Hurricane Jezebel ,Rbt E Lee ,Dead Yankee ,U S Grant ,General Mead, Baron Karza, Rowdy Roddy Piper, Col Sanders, Aunt Jemimas witnesses, of the people Q, Le French Stereotypes, Qfdsdiozbnf, Alan Scott, Baltar the Traitor, Mok Mok the Jawa, space kraken, | |
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| The Wachovia Coalition | Jun 19 2005, 09:49:57 PM Post #16 |
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It would be quite appropriate actually. Let's face it. Even when doing things we call OOC we're actually RPing on some level so this could be a fun connection/exploration of the interaction of Eastern and Western cultures and their sense of honor. |
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"Unity through humility" Currently in the region as Wachoviasa. "[NationStates] is like watching a movie that is Black Hawk Down vs. Lord of the Rings vs. Star Wars..." - New Fubaria | |
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| Thyatira | Jun 20 2005, 10:45:09 AM Post #17 |
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I very much appreciate the work done and the look of this. The Gryphonnic equivalent of Daimyo, though, would be Chapter-Master -- as "Seneschal" is an elected rank to lead the full Council. I really like the Flag-Bearer. I think that would be "Hatamoto". Not sure on my 'Nihonese', though. You guys could check if you like. I appreciate the adoption of Narikei and Keima. It maintains the use of some chess terms. Masterknight within the Gryphons is based on a variant chessman, for example. I see the code of Bushido touched upon here as being in-keeping with the code of the Knighthood. As the Gryphonnic Code develops so to do I hope that EP Bushido can be expounded. I know that the most prevalently advertised Code of the Gryphons has been the "Thyatirite" Code: Blessings, Glory, Honour, Power, Riches, Strength, and Wisdom. I admit that it does differ somewhat from the historic Virtues. However, in defense of these let me state that the Power, Riches, and Strength of the Order will gradually become the Chancery. Power and Strength (with only a shade of difference between them, even in the Biblical root inspiration for the seven virtues) will, in the Gryphons, be the collected data of the Order. This will not be some secret archive of information but it will be available to all Member-Knights. Too many unfortunate and lamentable events in NationStates have at their root the keeping of secrets. You both have had concerns that the Order is ill-defined. This is due, in part, to my hiatus from NationStates at the end of last year. That I was away from the computer for so long is unfortunate. The groundwork of the Order might already be finished if my computer had not imploded. Many of my files for the Knighthood were lost and we are making up for that loss still. However, we are gathering talents from more and more Regions on an almost daily basis. I do hope to be able to draw on the talents of an EP Chapter. If the Gryphons can do this, it is my hope that we will be able to help to address some of the problems between the EP and some other Regions and/or organizations. More soon... |
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| The Wachovia Coalition | Jun 20 2005, 02:00:29 PM Post #18 |
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I'll await your further words. Allow me to say now two things. First, good catch on the titles. You're very right I had the wrong equivalent of Diamyo. Second, we may want to refrain from vising upon the relations of The East Pacific and other regions in this thread. That is likely to be a contentious side issue. As I have said to you, I hope never to encourage a person to involve themselves in NS too much. Other relationships are important outside the game. I am encouraged though that you feel you have time to reinvigorate the order. The order will benefit from it greatly. |
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"Unity through humility" Currently in the region as Wachoviasa. "[NationStates] is like watching a movie that is Black Hawk Down vs. Lord of the Rings vs. Star Wars..." - New Fubaria | |
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| Infinite Loop | Jun 20 2005, 08:33:50 PM Post #19 |
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Take Off, Eh?
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IRL terms a Daiymo is more like a Lord, as he manages a large portion of the Emperors land and serves as a local representative of the Emperor. the 7 virture thingys are at this moment a concern to me, as they do not seem fitting with the knightly virtues, and those of a Samurai will of course be a bit different. |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Endorsements recieved ( 69 ) : Cupertino, 1 Infinite Loop, 2 Infinite Loop, Infinite Loop, Bob Mckenzie, Shinagami, Shortbus, Magic Emperor Ghaelon, Ghaelon, SLAK, Prarie squid, Alys Whitill, The Cabin Grrrrl, The Cabin Girl, hax0rstan, Black Wolf Furries, Mr OWL, Vladimir Harkonnen, Uncle Duke, McTropolis, Avignon, Caesar Calligula, Max Zorin, Deus Ex Fiat, Walter Koenig, The True Reich, Atlanta Constitution, Fark Propaganda Corps, The Knights of Colombus, Fertile Sputniks, Jude Streicher,Otto Skorzeny, Nicholas der Kirchwass, Megalocyathus, Lil Megalocyathus, Uncle Toms Nation, Simon Legree, Yatta_, Lowtax, Patriotute, Doctor Zaius, General Ursus, Corneluis the ape, Nova the wild human, Bright eyes taylor, Dr Zira, Alex Chiu, Honkey the Goose, StandartenFuerher, Neko Mimi, The NS Invaders, Free n Accepted Masons.Miss Tessmacher, Hurricane Jezebel ,Rbt E Lee ,Dead Yankee ,U S Grant ,General Mead, Baron Karza, Rowdy Roddy Piper, Col Sanders, Aunt Jemimas witnesses, of the people Q, Le French Stereotypes, Qfdsdiozbnf, Alan Scott, Baltar the Traitor, Mok Mok the Jawa, space kraken, | |
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| Thyatira | Jun 20 2005, 10:28:04 PM Post #20 |
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I'll be reviewing the Applications of accepted Knights during the course of the week to compile a perhaps more appropriate list. |
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| The Wachovia Coalition | Jun 21 2005, 06:52:31 PM Post #21 |
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In my mind the matter of the virtues is not a huge sticking point. There are only a few that I would outright reject. Most here generally fall into the current list. Perhaps this is something we can work on as we continue rolling? |
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"Unity through humility" Currently in the region as Wachoviasa. "[NationStates] is like watching a movie that is Black Hawk Down vs. Lord of the Rings vs. Star Wars..." - New Fubaria | |
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| Infinite Loop | Jun 24 2005, 03:09:24 AM Post #22 |
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Take Off, Eh?
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An Idea for Implimention in the Gryphons, rather than the three huge images, perhaps a small banner of perhaps 100 px high X 500 long that is linked to the Gryphons forum, I noticed that none of the Gryphons had it in their sig or as a linky image. |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Endorsements recieved ( 69 ) : Cupertino, 1 Infinite Loop, 2 Infinite Loop, Infinite Loop, Bob Mckenzie, Shinagami, Shortbus, Magic Emperor Ghaelon, Ghaelon, SLAK, Prarie squid, Alys Whitill, The Cabin Grrrrl, The Cabin Girl, hax0rstan, Black Wolf Furries, Mr OWL, Vladimir Harkonnen, Uncle Duke, McTropolis, Avignon, Caesar Calligula, Max Zorin, Deus Ex Fiat, Walter Koenig, The True Reich, Atlanta Constitution, Fark Propaganda Corps, The Knights of Colombus, Fertile Sputniks, Jude Streicher,Otto Skorzeny, Nicholas der Kirchwass, Megalocyathus, Lil Megalocyathus, Uncle Toms Nation, Simon Legree, Yatta_, Lowtax, Patriotute, Doctor Zaius, General Ursus, Corneluis the ape, Nova the wild human, Bright eyes taylor, Dr Zira, Alex Chiu, Honkey the Goose, StandartenFuerher, Neko Mimi, The NS Invaders, Free n Accepted Masons.Miss Tessmacher, Hurricane Jezebel ,Rbt E Lee ,Dead Yankee ,U S Grant ,General Mead, Baron Karza, Rowdy Roddy Piper, Col Sanders, Aunt Jemimas witnesses, of the people Q, Le French Stereotypes, Qfdsdiozbnf, Alan Scott, Baltar the Traitor, Mok Mok the Jawa, space kraken, | |
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| Thyatira | Jun 24 2005, 12:04:35 PM Post #23 |
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Very nice suggestion. I'm actually very surprised we haven't made one yet. |
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| Infinite Loop | Jun 27 2005, 12:50:40 AM Post #24 |
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Take Off, Eh?
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Thyat, I felt that tis is the best place to post it, and I want to be on the up and up with ya, I for the most part lke the order, but I wont join it officially, and I will not reveal who Ivanhoe is, I will continue to be the black knight but that is the extent of my involvement, that and making suggestions. I think that in the long run, it can be a good thing, perhaps the next Meritocracy, I however do not like the level fo ADN involvment, I do not feel that they can be an honorable knight and still be part of that invader group. I hope you dont take offense at this and I hope WC doesnt either. this is just my feelings abotu it. |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Endorsements recieved ( 69 ) : Cupertino, 1 Infinite Loop, 2 Infinite Loop, Infinite Loop, Bob Mckenzie, Shinagami, Shortbus, Magic Emperor Ghaelon, Ghaelon, SLAK, Prarie squid, Alys Whitill, The Cabin Grrrrl, The Cabin Girl, hax0rstan, Black Wolf Furries, Mr OWL, Vladimir Harkonnen, Uncle Duke, McTropolis, Avignon, Caesar Calligula, Max Zorin, Deus Ex Fiat, Walter Koenig, The True Reich, Atlanta Constitution, Fark Propaganda Corps, The Knights of Colombus, Fertile Sputniks, Jude Streicher,Otto Skorzeny, Nicholas der Kirchwass, Megalocyathus, Lil Megalocyathus, Uncle Toms Nation, Simon Legree, Yatta_, Lowtax, Patriotute, Doctor Zaius, General Ursus, Corneluis the ape, Nova the wild human, Bright eyes taylor, Dr Zira, Alex Chiu, Honkey the Goose, StandartenFuerher, Neko Mimi, The NS Invaders, Free n Accepted Masons.Miss Tessmacher, Hurricane Jezebel ,Rbt E Lee ,Dead Yankee ,U S Grant ,General Mead, Baron Karza, Rowdy Roddy Piper, Col Sanders, Aunt Jemimas witnesses, of the people Q, Le French Stereotypes, Qfdsdiozbnf, Alan Scott, Baltar the Traitor, Mok Mok the Jawa, space kraken, | |
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| Thyatira | Jun 27 2005, 11:39:30 AM Post #25 |
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I take no offense. I hope, that as time goes on, you will feel increasingly comfortable with more extensive involvement. I am glad you have used and will continue to use Ivanhoe. I will not disclose the identity of the Black Knight. As to the ADN involvement, I do hope that this will become less of a sticking point as the Order's membership grows more diverse. Time will tell, of course. But again, I appreciate your candor. Thank you for voices your views and concerns. |
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3:26 AM Jul 11