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Zen and the art of Mech Repair
Topic Started: Apr 9 2008, 12:54:27 PM (915 Views)
Kandarin
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Ferret princess
Of late (and really, this is hardly new) quite a lot of RPers have or want to have mecha, or giant, bipedal robotic war machines. Some other people dislike them on the grounds that they think such things are incredibly cheesy. Both have a point, so here's a little food for thought.

As you've probably all already figured out, we don't have any rules on sci-fi technology here. There are no artificially imposed limitations on things like warp drives, teleportation, or wacky genetic engineering. Realism is not an issue here, as we gave that up when we started using the NS universe, and there's not really a way to extricate ourselves from it that would please all or even a considerable part of the RPers here. What we do ask is plausibility.

What's the difference? Plausibility is the internal logic of your RP. It means thinking through your sci-fi (or fantasy) assumptions and assessing what the benefits and flaws of the changes are. If you're RPing, say, a civilization where genetic engineering is widespread or teleportation is universally available or other planets have been colonized, it's a good idea to think through what this would mean for your society - especially if this technology is the central feature of an RP.

Technology (and magic, for you fantasy types) is not a panacea. It simply trades old problems for new ones. Ubertech should not be shunned, but at the same time, it's not a plot angle for everyone. Rather than being a way of granting oneself freebies, it is an extra challenge and takes more effort to do convincingly. With that in mind, let's have a look at mecha.

---

Overall, a mech is to a main battle tank as a main battle tank is to an infantryman. This may sound strange and more than a little simplistic, but it's true on a number of levels.

Firepower - This doesn't always follow from illustrations, but traditionally mecha are described as having far more weapons than can be installed on a tank. Typically, this is in the form of weapons mounted on each arm, the robot's back, and so forth. A mech can fire a lot more weapons than other typical ground platforms.

Psychological effect - Tanks have a fearsome psychological effect. Their noise, appearance, and apparent invulnerability to hand weapons can have a strongly demoralizing effect on enemy infantry. Mecha would be more so, as they are larger, noisier (probably) and even more resilient. The appearance of a human form may also help somewhat, but I'm not delving that deep here.

Mobility - This is one of the main reasons for mecha. A bipedal system allows movement on terrain that would or could not support tracked vehicles, including uneven slopes and ruined city streets.

Armor thickness - I'm not quite clear on the rationale for this, but they are always depicted as such. Note that I did not say "resilience to damage".

Logistics cost - Mechs are larger vehicles with more sophisticated engines and other systems than tracked vehicles. That means they have a *lot* more moving parts. There's also a lot more that can break down and a need for more specialized replacement parts. Not only that, but they use a lot of energy. Diesel, batteries, fusion cores - whatever your nation uses for power, they're using a ton of it. Mecha need constant support from supply lines and service personnel to keep running. A mech out of supply is a beaten mech.

Target profile - Yes, you have thicker armor, but everything that can pierce it can see you better. A giant robot says "Hey, look at me". That's great when you're trying to terrify enemy infantry. It's not so good when the enemy has air superiority and decent sighting. For that matter, it's not so good when you *don't* have air superiority.

Vulnerability of propulsion - If you take a look at the difference between World War I-era tanks and those of World War II and beyond, you'll notice a marked difference in their treads. The older models had large treads along the entire outside rim of the vehicle. These became obsolete because the ease with which treads could be targeted was a limiting factor in the usefulness of armor. Mecha have a similar deal. A bipedal propulsion system presents a weak spot in the form of legs, which can be knocked out to cripple the mech. Sure, those legs may be made out of super-hardened battle handwavium, but if they break, the whole machine will go down. Even if the legs aren't snapped, they contain critical systems that may be damaged.

Some nations get around this by using anti-gravity or rocket packs, but if you have that, why use a bipedal war machine at all?

Reliance on combined arms - There are many things that a mech can't do. One of them is a time-honored tradition shared with tanks, ships, planes, helicopters, and so forth: A mech can't hold territory. Sure, they can kill people and break things, but if you plan to maintain order and properly police an area in any meaningful way, the only military unit that can help you is the common infantryman.

As mentioned above, there's not a lot a mech can do in the face of air power that a conventional surface-to-air battery cannot. Even if your mech is as effective as a typical surface-to-air battery, this represents specialization on the part of the military force supplying it. Ground weapons would have to be given up in favor of anti-air weapons. Even so, mechs cannot operate alone.
"Torpored Caitiff Antediluvian"

Quote:
 
ClipSnap says:
Kandarin should just implode from the sheer ridiculousness of it all.
ClipSnap says:
I mean, no nation could ever sustain that many contradicting belief systems and still exist.
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Infinite Loop
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Take Off, Eh?
my mecha are based on those of the Robotech anime, during 05 or 06 I had written that we discovered a Zentradi ship in space and brought back as much technology as we could including Protoculture during the last 10 years we have been developing them primarily for space use our Destroids are based in the Zentradi and Invid designs and the one known Veitech group is based on the Valkyrie line they are not intended to be a Deus ex fiat but a happy addition to my stuff.

Also colonel Vargas is a mech yes but he is a free mech his design was a Cylon Prototype,
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Endorsements recieved ( 69 ) : Cupertino, 1 Infinite Loop, 2 Infinite Loop, Infinite Loop, Bob Mckenzie, Shinagami, Shortbus, Magic Emperor Ghaelon, Ghaelon, SLAK, Prarie squid, Alys Whitill, The Cabin Grrrrl, The Cabin Girl, hax0rstan, Black Wolf Furries, Mr OWL, Vladimir Harkonnen, Uncle Duke, McTropolis, Avignon, Caesar Calligula, Max Zorin, Deus Ex Fiat, Walter Koenig, The True Reich, Atlanta Constitution, Fark Propaganda Corps, The Knights of Colombus, Fertile Sputniks, Jude Streicher,Otto Skorzeny, Nicholas der Kirchwass, Megalocyathus, Lil Megalocyathus, Uncle Toms Nation, Simon Legree, Yatta_, Lowtax, Patriotute, Doctor Zaius, General Ursus, Corneluis the ape, Nova the wild human, Bright eyes taylor, Dr Zira, Alex Chiu, Honkey the Goose, StandartenFuerher, Neko Mimi, The NS Invaders, Free n Accepted Masons.Miss Tessmacher, Hurricane Jezebel ,Rbt E Lee ,Dead Yankee ,U S Grant ,General Mead, Baron Karza, Rowdy Roddy Piper, Col Sanders, Aunt Jemimas witnesses, of the people Q, Le French Stereotypes, Qfdsdiozbnf, Alan Scott, Baltar the Traitor, Mok Mok the Jawa, space kraken,
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drakkengard
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WA Liaison
Cool, Loop! I´m a robotech fan too!

I like power armors and battletech too, Warr! Their debut on a thread is being considered...

Kand, mechas (ACs) aren´t the only thing in Drakkengard military (just the coolest :)). I´ve already showed in the Leviathan thread that Drakkengard relies on smaller, cheaper (yet needed) troops, like infantry or APCs too. See, i considered logistics cost and the need to rely on combined arms. Well, i admit that i did got around the vulnerability of propulsion... but flying mechas are the best. :tu:
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Reziel
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Eternal Delegate
ROFL... i won't go on tech details and so on. i'd just say that kand was probably trying to send a message like this:

mecha-fan nations, your playthings are indeed cool and powerful, but do not expect:
a. the RP administration to allow you LEGIONS of mechas. be plausible and fair.
b. not-mecha-owning nations to bow in front of you, terrified by your invincible mechas just because they're not sci-fi addict


:D
Armis Exposcere Pacem
They demanded peace by force of arms


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Really Nice Hats
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Mo
Anything I'd employ would be BattleTech-based (or MechWarrior based - whichever), or huge steam-powered dreadnoughts with walking speeds roughly that of the rare Peruvian Sea Grasshopper (steampunk is always fun).

But 'Hats isn't likely to do either.
You'll never be completely rid of me.
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Reziel
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Eternal Delegate
Strange... seeing the new battle-hat-avatar of yours, we all thought you would have soon gone military...
Armis Exposcere Pacem
They demanded peace by force of arms


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packilvania
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Caliph
Pax mechs are actually a combination of the soldier and machine. (big suprise huh?) There are no traditional giant ass mechs, but the common infantry man is enhanced. The downside is of course, the fuel. While food is a relatively common resource, outside control lines, nuclear material tends to be scarce.
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"The Cybernets shall overrun every thing you hold dear. Assimilate."

Loop: Well that rules out my Atomic Metroid Spy Toilet I had planned.
DFD: WAAAAH, you butt hurt me. Cry cry cry.
Todd My foreign officer ended up pushing her wiener (gl@sses) further up the bridge of her nose.
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Dannistaan
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Bat Shoot Loco
Kandarin has a good point. Several in fact. Mecha are often portrayed as super-duper pwnage mobiles, anime being especially guilty of this. With this in mind, I have tried to avoid that in portraying my interpretation of an Armored Core, the mecha seen in the game series of the same name.

Generally speaking, although powerful and useful in certain situations, Dannistrian ACs are notorious for requiring a lot of maintenance and being more vulnerable and slower than a standard tank. Hence the high attrition rate amongst the Ravens, the soldiers who pilot the AC. They do have the advantage of being able to take a lot more punishment (Though this is negated by being easier to hit) and being able to move over terrain that MBTs cannot traverse as well as having a lot more firepower and being able to bring that to bear against a target. Ravens are trained time and time again of the strengths and weaknesses of their mount and are reminded constantly that they behave nothing like in anime. Some of the ACs can be as large as 4 storeys and as small as 1. Many of the smaller ACs are adapted for police use, though some are now questioning their value.

The closest you'll get to an uberpwnmobile in a Dannistrian AC are the 3 "Neva'lu" prototypes. Each one is highly expensive and is unlikely to be mass produced in their current form. However they are useful testbeds for AC technology and many safety and combat improvements have filtered down into the standard production ACs. One of the most common class of light AC is the "Gah'lahs'gou" or "Glasgow" class which is an old design dating back to the mid 90's. It is best described as a spindly, lanky mecha which goes against what you normally think of a mech. It is relegated to scouting and light attack duties now but in it's time it was considered the creme de la creme. On the opposite end of the common scale is the "Ga'rahsh" or "Golem" class AC which is distinguishable thanks to the thick, chunky armour and it's ability to carry the "Hill hammer" weapon. A massive howitzer of WWI sizes, now seldom used.
The Office of Her Majesty's Dannistrian Ambassador to Rillanon, Christie Island
The Royal Confederacy of Dannistaan
In Omnis Unum
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Kandarin
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Ferret princess
Dann hits on another comparison- Cost. Like all armored units or advanced military technology in general, mechs come with a hefty price tag. Expect a mech to cost anything from the cost of a main battle tank (for the smaller, lower-tech mechs) to many times the cost of the priciest new jet fighters (for the flashier models, like Dann's Ne'valu or Drakk's Wyvern).

Warr
 
But the question in such a situation would be, if a nation can build mecha, and realizes other nations are doing the same, why would they not begin building powered armor (That is to say armored suits with enhanced firepower, durability, and mobility) to combat the mecha


Good question.

Powered armor and mecha are often portrayed together and are often a part of the same genre, but from a practical standpoint, powered armor aren't necessarily an obvious "counter" to mecha. What you're doing with powered armor is boosting the overall effectiveness of your infantry. That may be a good idea, but the ability of power-armored infantry to fight mecha isn't improved any more than anything else is. Your infantry may be able to march longer, shoot harder, and take more damage from infantry weapons, but improved infantry armor isn't going to provide much protection against the sort of weapons wielded by heavy mechanized units, which mecha invariably are - unless the powered armor is some sort of Gundam-level silliness.

Again, there's the issue of cost. Powered armor, or any other high-tech replacement for infantry, will come at a massive pricetag if employed on a large scale, because unlike supplying specialized units (as with mecha) you've got to distribute it to every footslogger in your army. I really mean that "massive". It's above and beyond any other technology upgrade cost I can think of offhand. I will just come right out and say that no one in the region has a nation capable of doing that, except for Pack - and the price Pack pays for it is every bit as much Faustian as it is economic.
"Torpored Caitiff Antediluvian"

Quote:
 
ClipSnap says:
Kandarin should just implode from the sheer ridiculousness of it all.
ClipSnap says:
I mean, no nation could ever sustain that many contradicting belief systems and still exist.
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Dannistaan
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Bat Shoot Loco
And to extend on Kandarin's note. You have to take into account the economic and political abilities of your nation. Dannistaan is by no means poor but military spending is a massive hot potato in Dannistrian politics. Dannistaan has the means to support standard AC mecha but to try to create an army of super mecha such as the experimental Ne'valu would be prohibitively expensive and even if it wasn't it would be politically unacceptable. As I always like to think when thinking up fancy sci-fi technology:

"When you invent the car, you also invent the traffic jam..."

In other words, any new tech you can think up must also have a negative side effect to it.
The Office of Her Majesty's Dannistrian Ambassador to Rillanon, Christie Island
The Royal Confederacy of Dannistaan
In Omnis Unum
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Really Nice Hats
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Mo
Anybody play MechWarrior 3? There were these little 'mechs that were no more than a box with a seat on it, with arms and legs. They couldn't have been more than ten feet tall.

They amused my Annihilator greatly.
You'll never be completely rid of me.
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Reziel
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Eternal Delegate
Warr
Apr 11 2008, 04:59 PM
Free Pacific States buying a Battlestar? That'd surely have caused riots in that nation, what with it's (seeming) fragile senate structure, and the fact that the cost could not be very little, it'd actually probably be even more massive than supplying every unit in the regular military of a nation with powered Armor.

Let's begin from here. FPS is one of the longest-standing nations of TEP... and that's the beginning of my opinion.

The point is not a double face equation structured like:
(old nations) = (allowed to do and have everything they want)
(new nations) = (punching balls with no right to have tech)

Nor it's the urgent need to set limits and guidelines or something like this.

The point is an attempt to have a good RP, even a war one, without necessairly make it a i'm the most powerful nation in TEP rush... which is, on the contrary, what's happening right now.

Does a generic person want 356 billions of anti-mecha-equipped infantrymen? Have them. No problems for me. Do you know when I begin to have problems? When this person tries to take advantage of this invincible army against others.

As long as this person has the legions of heavens at his side but he RPs fairly (see Dann's references to the limited numbers of his mechas, the incredible logistic problems they usually have and so on), that's ok.

As soon as this person says "my legions of heavens are strong enough to defeat you tanks"... well... that's the point i begin being unconfortable with. And do you know what will happen? That I'll say "ok... my labs have just developed an angel-buster cannon" and then the person replies "i've an anti-angel-buster shield" and I say "i now have a shield destroyer and so on"...

... and we all say where this will end. Reciprocal accusations, anger, strife and a godd RP wasted.

Therefore, I repeat myself.

Let's all be credible and fair. If we aren't... then don't complain if and when retailation starts.
Armis Exposcere Pacem
They demanded peace by force of arms


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Infinite Loop
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Take Off, Eh?
a little background on my nation so as to explain some ntuff in forthcoming.
I was enamoured with the Harry Turtledove World War series therefore in 1943 my nation (it is more coplicated but that is for later) was isvoded by the lizards, after almost ten years of combating them finally an armistice was reached and our tech went from there I have to head out now but I mill be back later tonight with more information.
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Endorsements recieved ( 69 ) : Cupertino, 1 Infinite Loop, 2 Infinite Loop, Infinite Loop, Bob Mckenzie, Shinagami, Shortbus, Magic Emperor Ghaelon, Ghaelon, SLAK, Prarie squid, Alys Whitill, The Cabin Grrrrl, The Cabin Girl, hax0rstan, Black Wolf Furries, Mr OWL, Vladimir Harkonnen, Uncle Duke, McTropolis, Avignon, Caesar Calligula, Max Zorin, Deus Ex Fiat, Walter Koenig, The True Reich, Atlanta Constitution, Fark Propaganda Corps, The Knights of Colombus, Fertile Sputniks, Jude Streicher,Otto Skorzeny, Nicholas der Kirchwass, Megalocyathus, Lil Megalocyathus, Uncle Toms Nation, Simon Legree, Yatta_, Lowtax, Patriotute, Doctor Zaius, General Ursus, Corneluis the ape, Nova the wild human, Bright eyes taylor, Dr Zira, Alex Chiu, Honkey the Goose, StandartenFuerher, Neko Mimi, The NS Invaders, Free n Accepted Masons.Miss Tessmacher, Hurricane Jezebel ,Rbt E Lee ,Dead Yankee ,U S Grant ,General Mead, Baron Karza, Rowdy Roddy Piper, Col Sanders, Aunt Jemimas witnesses, of the people Q, Le French Stereotypes, Qfdsdiozbnf, Alan Scott, Baltar the Traitor, Mok Mok the Jawa, space kraken,
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Infinite Loop
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Take Off, Eh?
addendum I dont abuse new nations with my tech either, the last two wars I hane been involved in were against Govindia, and myself.
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Endorsements recieved ( 69 ) : Cupertino, 1 Infinite Loop, 2 Infinite Loop, Infinite Loop, Bob Mckenzie, Shinagami, Shortbus, Magic Emperor Ghaelon, Ghaelon, SLAK, Prarie squid, Alys Whitill, The Cabin Grrrrl, The Cabin Girl, hax0rstan, Black Wolf Furries, Mr OWL, Vladimir Harkonnen, Uncle Duke, McTropolis, Avignon, Caesar Calligula, Max Zorin, Deus Ex Fiat, Walter Koenig, The True Reich, Atlanta Constitution, Fark Propaganda Corps, The Knights of Colombus, Fertile Sputniks, Jude Streicher,Otto Skorzeny, Nicholas der Kirchwass, Megalocyathus, Lil Megalocyathus, Uncle Toms Nation, Simon Legree, Yatta_, Lowtax, Patriotute, Doctor Zaius, General Ursus, Corneluis the ape, Nova the wild human, Bright eyes taylor, Dr Zira, Alex Chiu, Honkey the Goose, StandartenFuerher, Neko Mimi, The NS Invaders, Free n Accepted Masons.Miss Tessmacher, Hurricane Jezebel ,Rbt E Lee ,Dead Yankee ,U S Grant ,General Mead, Baron Karza, Rowdy Roddy Piper, Col Sanders, Aunt Jemimas witnesses, of the people Q, Le French Stereotypes, Qfdsdiozbnf, Alan Scott, Baltar the Traitor, Mok Mok the Jawa, space kraken,
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packilvania
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Caliph
most oldbies other than myself don't harass the newbs. But I make sure that the new nations have something going for them. And there WERE alot of nukes dropped. It's kinda been an EP thing. Not to many have been used recently though.
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"The Cybernets shall overrun every thing you hold dear. Assimilate."

Loop: Well that rules out my Atomic Metroid Spy Toilet I had planned.
DFD: WAAAAH, you butt hurt me. Cry cry cry.
Todd My foreign officer ended up pushing her wiener (gl@sses) further up the bridge of her nose.
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Infinite Loop
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Take Off, Eh?
Bolded is by me

Warr
Apr 11 2008, 10:59 AM
No where did I say powered armor would be distributed to every infantryman, and in fact in every case I've seen it in, it's not an 'every' situation, so much as used by a crack group of soldiers. Understand that my interpretation of them being the most 'effective' against mecha is simply put because unless you're playing slow hulking tanks (As I said, there are quite a few differences between mecha types and models, and they -could- have their problems dealt with.), tanks can hold their ground against mecha, but atypically will not be able to take them out.

A primary feature of any army using powered armor is exactly the fact that these are extremely well trained troops, and their job is not simply to combat an opposing mech. Atypically their job is to capture the opposing mech, both because it helps turn the tide of a battle, and also because it provides their scientists with knowledge of opposing nation's mecha.

Let me go further into stating that you guys need to also point your finger with a menacing way towards the extra-earth orbital space craft used by many others. There are as many problems both scientifically and logistically speaking with those as there are with anything else, especially in the case of some.

Free Pacific States buying a Battlestar? That'd surely have caused riots in that nation, what with it's (seeming) fragile senate structure, and the fact that the cost could not be very little, it'd actually probably be even more massive than supplying every unit in the regular military of a nation with powered Armor.

That's not all, however.

Let me bother to explain the logistical problems and cost a submersible air craft carrier would cause. Would it be cheap? No, not at all. Safe? That's debatable, but likely no as it's seen no real world application so you couldn't have borrowed knowledge from a real world firm. Likely supported as a good decision even by a military dictatorship or something that would refer to itself as an 'armed republic'? No, because of the cost and danger of it. All forbid a whole fleet of them. Oh, wai---.

And then onwards to the most recent expansion of 'logical use and systems of advanced technology'; theeeeeeeeeeeeeeee lasers of Terasu. Things which I spent 2 hours arguing with and am going to help make more feasible. Would mobile armies be able to use lasers in their current stage effectively? No, probably not. They're too hard to properly heat and keep in the same form (IE; not dispersing) without a great deal of energy. Further still, they take a large amount of time, and their costs would be -far- more than that of a rifle or a turret; which would have the same psychological value.

The meaning of this?

There is no 'medium' for us all. Unless there is an enforced on all nations within the Eastern Pacific 'logistical operations control', then there should be on none. Let me reiterate that a lighter armor or more effective armor, even a quicker mecha from recent developments in automation science, would not be impossible to replicate. In fact, any nation with a dedicated Technological Sector could easily keep up on these developments, and even duplicate them (Though keeping up might come at a monetary price). Remember, everyone. We're playing in a world where 'apparently' the US and the other powers at be in our world exist.

The US government has already built a functional mecha (Of sorts), and as had Japan. In this alternate world, or multiverse of our's, it is safe to say that both might well have made huge strides. It's also safe to say that for a simple economic prescience/allowance they might help defense a nation that's trying to keep itself stable in such a 'dangerous' region. Wanna argue it'd dangerous? Over 6 Nuclear Hot spots? All from fairly recent time? Oh, it's dangerous in the US and NATO's eyes, I'm surprised they'd not IC attempt to hit the Eastern Pacific. I mean, they freaked out enough and continue to, at Iran and North Korea having Nuclear Technology, and the chances of being on the 'Nuclear Bomb' kids panel. There's also the fact that they don't want those nations to have them because they don't want to have to deal with nuclear fallout, or a nuclear winter, yet multiple nuclear bombs have happened here in the Eastern Pacific.

Allow us to use our own logic, because while you are a logical person, Kandarin, your logic is by no means infaliable, and you, from what I have seen, don't seem to care if FPS or IL have Transforming Robotech mecha, a great deal of extra-solar level star battleships, etc.

I say allow us to use our own logic because the fact of the matter is, we're ignoring clear logical notes on the grounds of 'it being NS', despite the claims that the US and the like still exist in NS.

I am trying to refer to the major issues I saw here so bear with me.
1st bold.
My nation as per part of my storyline was one invaded in the 40's by extraterristrials this was of course worked out wia backstory that I cannot find atm due to it being around 6000 posts ago.
the outcome of this was a huge technology leaphence my possesion of Battlestars couple that with my love of altornate thime lines and time travel, a storyline I and Pack did consisted of a huge part of my population (my nation used to be split between 4 regions) left the planet to colonize a habitable planet (alpha prime) that colony eventually becomes Packilvania who returns is the past to the long lont homeworld. part of this story was a battlestar (Prometheus) from the alternate universe (Current Hikarus future) getting thrown into our universe, my nation also has a few colonies out in space (another way to explain huge populations before I decided to ignore NS pop count) these colonies the raw materials for the ships of course came from lpace much as in Trek.
(Prometheus is like New Galactica, Others are like 70's galacitca)
(BTW I didnt jump onto the BSG bandwagon I have loved Galactica since the 70's,)
(I predicted the iPhone too but I called it a Newton)
Battlestar count.
me
Bismark, Pacifica (long range exploration), Prometheus, Galactica (in 5 yearc refit)
Wachovia
Titan
FPS
Aroura

Bismark is kept at the planet to act as a station as we lost our station whon the Cylons got independance.
the others are presumed out on exploration.


2nd bold
Yes they bought one as did Wachovia. when my nation had the Population control flu/Nekomimi Flu when I was considering scrapping my nation ond becoming 3rd world FPS Leased Galactica to help us out with the stipulation that we construct one for them for when the lease ran out, which we did, it took 10 years to do so but it was completed. and I guess they did riot FPSians will riot for anything it is like the national sport.

3rd bold
as for the US I presumed that they did not exist as we know them today otherwise they surely would see the EP as a threat and go to war with our region
for that I have pretty much presumed that the US looks like this
Posted Image

this keeps a USA for us tho deal with but keeps it small so we con concentrate on our selves and not worry about how the US would see EP activities, namely my wiping Iran and most of the islamic world off the map

4th bold
THe hotspots, simple we had some war, bear in mind not all are detonations, the one in Me was a nuke I think Pack did it or I did it to myself to get him.
the one north of Christie, was a IL Nuke sub that went down I think in the war with Gov
south of Christie I am not sure I think it was a errant missle that fell from a plane didnt blow up but we documented it
NE of FPS are both at sea the line from teh one is actually the line from the number under it I dont recall what they were
the one in india I believe it was a nuke by me against Gov more likely atomic not modern Neke tho
the inland ones I dont know what they are. I think they were reactors that went up.


Reziel
 

Warr
Apr 11 2008, 04:59 PM
Free Pacific States buying a Battlestar? That'd surely have caused riots in that nation, what with it's (seeming) fragile senate structure, and the fact that the cost could not be very little, it'd actually probably be even more massive than supplying every unit in the regular military of a nation with powered Armor.

Let's begin from here. FPS is one of the longest-standing nations of TEP... and that's the beginning of my opinion.

The point is not a double face equation structured like:
(old nations) = (allowed to do and have everything they want)
(new nations) = (punching balls with no right to have tech)


Nor it's the urgent need to set limits and guidelines or something like this.

The point is an attempt to have a good RP, even a war one, without necessairly make it a i'm the most powerful nation in TEP rush... which is, on the contrary, what's happening right now.

Does a generic person want 356 billions of anti-mecha-equipped infantrymen? Have them. No problems for me. Do you know when I begin to have problems? When this person tries to take advantage of this invincible army against others.

As long as this person has the legions of heavens at his side but he RPs fairly (see Dann's references to the limited numbers of his mechas, the incredible logistic problems they usually have and so on), that's ok.

As soon as this person says "my legions of heavens are strong enough to defeat you tanks"... well... that's the point i begin being unconfortable with. And do you know what will happen? That I'll say "ok... my labs have just developed an angel-buster cannon" and then the person replies "i've an anti-angel-buster shield" and I say "i now have a shield destroyer and so on"...

... and we all say where this will end. Reciprocal accusations, anger, strife and a godd RP wasted.

Therefore, I repeat myself.

Let's all be credible and fair. If we aren't... then don't complain if and when retailation starts.


1st bold
actually that is how it is in some forums sadly but not here I don't "punching bag" new folks I usually try to leave them alone at first because as I see it new nations are those that have recently coalesced out of the people who lived in the once unclaimed wilds therefore my nation is going to greet them as we realize that they are there but we will try to leave them alone until asked for assistance (kinda like how starfleet does with the prime directive) I got accused of "punching bagging" Govindia after I finally got fed up with his style of RP when he placed his characters isnide of one of my maximum security intel bases without my permission so I try to be sure I dont do that.
as for tech anyone can have it hell I dont care who has stuff so long as it isnt abused just as I try to do the same non abusing with my own stuff.
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Endorsements recieved ( 69 ) : Cupertino, 1 Infinite Loop, 2 Infinite Loop, Infinite Loop, Bob Mckenzie, Shinagami, Shortbus, Magic Emperor Ghaelon, Ghaelon, SLAK, Prarie squid, Alys Whitill, The Cabin Grrrrl, The Cabin Girl, hax0rstan, Black Wolf Furries, Mr OWL, Vladimir Harkonnen, Uncle Duke, McTropolis, Avignon, Caesar Calligula, Max Zorin, Deus Ex Fiat, Walter Koenig, The True Reich, Atlanta Constitution, Fark Propaganda Corps, The Knights of Colombus, Fertile Sputniks, Jude Streicher,Otto Skorzeny, Nicholas der Kirchwass, Megalocyathus, Lil Megalocyathus, Uncle Toms Nation, Simon Legree, Yatta_, Lowtax, Patriotute, Doctor Zaius, General Ursus, Corneluis the ape, Nova the wild human, Bright eyes taylor, Dr Zira, Alex Chiu, Honkey the Goose, StandartenFuerher, Neko Mimi, The NS Invaders, Free n Accepted Masons.Miss Tessmacher, Hurricane Jezebel ,Rbt E Lee ,Dead Yankee ,U S Grant ,General Mead, Baron Karza, Rowdy Roddy Piper, Col Sanders, Aunt Jemimas witnesses, of the people Q, Le French Stereotypes, Qfdsdiozbnf, Alan Scott, Baltar the Traitor, Mok Mok the Jawa, space kraken,
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Free Pacific States
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Number One Drone
For the record, there's absolutely no reason that purchasing a battlestar would cause a riot in Free Pacific States, as there's a general consensus on a need for national defense against extraterrestrial threats (notably Packilvania, which has threatened FPS repeatedly in the past, almost invading at two points). Whats more, FPS' political structure has nothing to do with its tendency towards riots, thats rather the result of extreme political involvement on the part of the populace.

...with that said, Loop is right, there probably were a couple riots, as it is pretty much the national sport (a lot of people attend protests just for the fun of getting into fights). It is noteworthy that the Free Pacific federal government is excellent at dealing with violent civil unrest, however, and most riots are put down without much incident.

I've stayed out of this thread thus far because it frankly didn't interest me, but, having been brought into it now, I'll enter full force. Advanced technology is reserved for those that are trusted within the region or those who display an RP premise that makes it clear that their high technology is nonthreatening*. It is a privilege, not a right, and it can be denied by the RP Administrator (Kandarin).

If you want to have advanced technology, Warr, you need to demonstrate that you're trustworthy. You cannot just demand it, declare the person denying it to you a hypocrite, and then expect to receive it.

*Let me note that by nonthreatening, I mean nonthreatening to the RPer, not ICly nonthreatening. Packilvania was highly threatening ICly; it remains such. When it came to RPers, though, Pack always worked to ensure that other players had as much fun as him. He actually ensured that he lost (or at least didn't win) every major conflict in which he involved himself for that reason. It isn't that a person needs to lose, though, its just that they need to be able to make sure everyone else has fun too. Until a person can be trusted to do that...advanced technology really isn't something they ought to be getting.
The Federated Alliance of Free Pacific States | Lyon Republic | Republic of Xiopothos | East Pacific Treaty Organization
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Infinite Loop
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Take Off, Eh?
I personally dont care one way or the other what tech people may have personally I think the idea of mechs based on ancient Atlantean (the sunk place not the place in Georgia lol) tech weold be sweet.

if you feel I am trying to forwe my position on ya just let me know I wonh get mad,
(fro teh record I have tried several times at removing my Tech and aliens but I keep getting talked out of it by others, at one point I was even gonna reverse my tech to the point that my nation was equivalent to Japan in the 40's)
but seriously RP your nation teh way you want in my opinion it is your nation after all, if you step over a bound the RP admin will let ya know, others may / will have differing opinions but that is them.

again for teh record I have actually given up territory and "conquests" often, most recently 75% of Korea,

lastly I reiterate in Bold
If anyone has a problem with me , my rp , or my nations whatnots please tell me.
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Endorsements recieved ( 69 ) : Cupertino, 1 Infinite Loop, 2 Infinite Loop, Infinite Loop, Bob Mckenzie, Shinagami, Shortbus, Magic Emperor Ghaelon, Ghaelon, SLAK, Prarie squid, Alys Whitill, The Cabin Grrrrl, The Cabin Girl, hax0rstan, Black Wolf Furries, Mr OWL, Vladimir Harkonnen, Uncle Duke, McTropolis, Avignon, Caesar Calligula, Max Zorin, Deus Ex Fiat, Walter Koenig, The True Reich, Atlanta Constitution, Fark Propaganda Corps, The Knights of Colombus, Fertile Sputniks, Jude Streicher,Otto Skorzeny, Nicholas der Kirchwass, Megalocyathus, Lil Megalocyathus, Uncle Toms Nation, Simon Legree, Yatta_, Lowtax, Patriotute, Doctor Zaius, General Ursus, Corneluis the ape, Nova the wild human, Bright eyes taylor, Dr Zira, Alex Chiu, Honkey the Goose, StandartenFuerher, Neko Mimi, The NS Invaders, Free n Accepted Masons.Miss Tessmacher, Hurricane Jezebel ,Rbt E Lee ,Dead Yankee ,U S Grant ,General Mead, Baron Karza, Rowdy Roddy Piper, Col Sanders, Aunt Jemimas witnesses, of the people Q, Le French Stereotypes, Qfdsdiozbnf, Alan Scott, Baltar the Traitor, Mok Mok the Jawa, space kraken,
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Lazlowia
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PR of Lazlowia
Infinite Loop
Apr 12 2008, 02:33 AM
3rd bold
as for the US I presumed that they did not exist as we know them today otherwise they surely would see the EP as a threat and go to war with our region
for that I have pretty much presumed that the US looks like this
Posted Image

this keeps a USA for us tho deal with but keeps it small so we con concentrate on our selves and not worry about how the US would see EP activities, namely my wiping Iran and most of the islamic world off the map

I actually always thought that the world outside the pacific is the same as our world and roughly had the same history. So to say, the USA is the same friendly imperialist buddy we know today, and not a stereotipycal alt-history thing.

Hey, to make it completely stereotipycal, give Alaska to Russia. It alway happen on these maps.
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Terasu
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Level 30 Revenant.
I think it would be easier if the TEP world was just on it's own, without the the RL nations or other regions somewhere in it.

As for the whole technology/logic argument, I like Terasu to be atleast partially scientifically believable but that's more for my own sake than anyone elses.

And yeah, give Alaska to the Russians.
Reziel
 
but i'm an asshole with computer graphics

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The Elafos Coalition
The Iskios Federation
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Kandarin
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Ferret princess
As Kelssek pointed out the last time I brought up the same thing, a common interpretation of the NS world is a 'Multiverse' of sorts.
"Torpored Caitiff Antediluvian"

Quote:
 
ClipSnap says:
Kandarin should just implode from the sheer ridiculousness of it all.
ClipSnap says:
I mean, no nation could ever sustain that many contradicting belief systems and still exist.
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Infinite Loop
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Take Off, Eh?
umm, the whole reason I updated the ads was because new folks asked for it.
I added +10 for new folks to be given a place ta get involved easier as it was new ground for all.

Im not happy with the powerstructure asd I am the oldest of old here, the RP moves so fast I cannot keep up therefore I get left behind or out, even it starylines I start. but it deesnt bother me that much because I know others are having a good time.

RP tha way you feel like I said if you start overstepping bounds the RP admin will say something. The RP admin is basically our Dungeon master after all.

I honestly cannot think of whatelse to say.
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Endorsements recieved ( 69 ) : Cupertino, 1 Infinite Loop, 2 Infinite Loop, Infinite Loop, Bob Mckenzie, Shinagami, Shortbus, Magic Emperor Ghaelon, Ghaelon, SLAK, Prarie squid, Alys Whitill, The Cabin Grrrrl, The Cabin Girl, hax0rstan, Black Wolf Furries, Mr OWL, Vladimir Harkonnen, Uncle Duke, McTropolis, Avignon, Caesar Calligula, Max Zorin, Deus Ex Fiat, Walter Koenig, The True Reich, Atlanta Constitution, Fark Propaganda Corps, The Knights of Colombus, Fertile Sputniks, Jude Streicher,Otto Skorzeny, Nicholas der Kirchwass, Megalocyathus, Lil Megalocyathus, Uncle Toms Nation, Simon Legree, Yatta_, Lowtax, Patriotute, Doctor Zaius, General Ursus, Corneluis the ape, Nova the wild human, Bright eyes taylor, Dr Zira, Alex Chiu, Honkey the Goose, StandartenFuerher, Neko Mimi, The NS Invaders, Free n Accepted Masons.Miss Tessmacher, Hurricane Jezebel ,Rbt E Lee ,Dead Yankee ,U S Grant ,General Mead, Baron Karza, Rowdy Roddy Piper, Col Sanders, Aunt Jemimas witnesses, of the people Q, Le French Stereotypes, Qfdsdiozbnf, Alan Scott, Baltar the Traitor, Mok Mok the Jawa, space kraken,
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Infinite Loop
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Take Off, Eh?
not changing subject, at least intentionally,
I honestly dont know what to say, I cannot override Kandarin or anyone else in an admin position, so I guess since my tech is riling folks so much I will fix the situation,
my post will be in the [+10] thing tonight.
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Endorsements recieved ( 69 ) : Cupertino, 1 Infinite Loop, 2 Infinite Loop, Infinite Loop, Bob Mckenzie, Shinagami, Shortbus, Magic Emperor Ghaelon, Ghaelon, SLAK, Prarie squid, Alys Whitill, The Cabin Grrrrl, The Cabin Girl, hax0rstan, Black Wolf Furries, Mr OWL, Vladimir Harkonnen, Uncle Duke, McTropolis, Avignon, Caesar Calligula, Max Zorin, Deus Ex Fiat, Walter Koenig, The True Reich, Atlanta Constitution, Fark Propaganda Corps, The Knights of Colombus, Fertile Sputniks, Jude Streicher,Otto Skorzeny, Nicholas der Kirchwass, Megalocyathus, Lil Megalocyathus, Uncle Toms Nation, Simon Legree, Yatta_, Lowtax, Patriotute, Doctor Zaius, General Ursus, Corneluis the ape, Nova the wild human, Bright eyes taylor, Dr Zira, Alex Chiu, Honkey the Goose, StandartenFuerher, Neko Mimi, The NS Invaders, Free n Accepted Masons.Miss Tessmacher, Hurricane Jezebel ,Rbt E Lee ,Dead Yankee ,U S Grant ,General Mead, Baron Karza, Rowdy Roddy Piper, Col Sanders, Aunt Jemimas witnesses, of the people Q, Le French Stereotypes, Qfdsdiozbnf, Alan Scott, Baltar the Traitor, Mok Mok the Jawa, space kraken,
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Infinite Loop
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Take Off, Eh?
I kinda understand you
but not completely, so as a person with no official capacity feel free to tell me whatever you need to,

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Endorsements recieved ( 69 ) : Cupertino, 1 Infinite Loop, 2 Infinite Loop, Infinite Loop, Bob Mckenzie, Shinagami, Shortbus, Magic Emperor Ghaelon, Ghaelon, SLAK, Prarie squid, Alys Whitill, The Cabin Grrrrl, The Cabin Girl, hax0rstan, Black Wolf Furries, Mr OWL, Vladimir Harkonnen, Uncle Duke, McTropolis, Avignon, Caesar Calligula, Max Zorin, Deus Ex Fiat, Walter Koenig, The True Reich, Atlanta Constitution, Fark Propaganda Corps, The Knights of Colombus, Fertile Sputniks, Jude Streicher,Otto Skorzeny, Nicholas der Kirchwass, Megalocyathus, Lil Megalocyathus, Uncle Toms Nation, Simon Legree, Yatta_, Lowtax, Patriotute, Doctor Zaius, General Ursus, Corneluis the ape, Nova the wild human, Bright eyes taylor, Dr Zira, Alex Chiu, Honkey the Goose, StandartenFuerher, Neko Mimi, The NS Invaders, Free n Accepted Masons.Miss Tessmacher, Hurricane Jezebel ,Rbt E Lee ,Dead Yankee ,U S Grant ,General Mead, Baron Karza, Rowdy Roddy Piper, Col Sanders, Aunt Jemimas witnesses, of the people Q, Le French Stereotypes, Qfdsdiozbnf, Alan Scott, Baltar the Traitor, Mok Mok the Jawa, space kraken,
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Free Pacific States
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Number One Drone
Quote:
 
By what premise? By some sort of rule which the administrators or older nations made? Sure seems funny that Pack is allowed so many mecha, spaceships, and cyborgs, all but the last are very very threatening.


Whats really funny is how you only mention the older nations that have advanced tech, not nations like Dannistaan, who had ACs from the start, or Drak, who has space ships despite being here only a couple months. The rule is about trust, not age.

What's more, I'd note, most of those that do have modern tech or less choose that. Not everybody wants to be an uber-power.

Quote:
 
Yes, yes I can. I can do that or leave


If you wish to leave, Warr, that is your choice. No one here will stop you. This is an RP forum not a prison. That threat got old long ago; stop making it.

Quote:
 
quite frankly if there is no dialogue


We're having a dialog right now, aren't we?

Quote:
 
or POSTED rules in regards to technology and what the 'little' nations can have


The posted rules were lost when the forum crashed a year back. Tell ya what, if I post them again, will you accept them?

Quote:
 
we can make blatant assumptions all we want.


Sure. You can make every assumption that you desire. Once you try to put that assumption into action, though, the RP Administrator is going to step in, per the authority given to him by a bill passed by the Magisterial Assembly and signed by the Delegate, and tell you that you're not allowed to do it.

Quote:
 
Further still, 'trustworthy'? By whom's thought process?


That of the RP Administrator.

Quote:
 
Trustworthy depends on the amount you like someone just as much as their actual responsibility and their reliability.


You'll find that those here in the East Pacific generally come to dislike a person only when said person is particularly arrogant, obnoxious, or just outright mean. As long as you're not any of those, you shouldn't have a problem.

Quote:
 
But whatever, as if TEP has proved anything to me so far it's that it doesn't change unless the oldies want a change and you guys are perfectly happy with the current power structure.


The oldies want change. We want positive change. Not just Carte Blanche authority for everybody to GodMod.

Quote:
 
Let me note the whole 'trustworthy/nonthreatening' implies 'established/on the way to being an oldie'.


Drak had ACs and space flight in his first week if I remember correctly. By that definition, you're already "establish/on the way to being an oldie," so I don't see why you're concerned.

Quote:
 
No he's not, because you can't have a dungeon master in freeform. He should be a mediator, not anything more. There's no 'level' system within TEP, so that's even more true.


No, there isn't. Kandarin isn't a dungeon master, either. You'll note that Loop said "pretty much." Its the same as calling a park ranger "pretty much" a cop. There's noteworthy differences. The East Pacific has freeform RP. It is still regulated, however, which is why we get away with freeform RP without the problems of the main NationStates forums.

Quote:
 

Not your tech in particular, moreso the seeming doublestandard towards tech that apparently exists. If you want to play a nation that's relatively mundane but still has -somewhat- advanced technology you're griped at more than those playing super tech nations.


If you want to play any nation with advanced technology you're screened a bit to make sure you're not going to abuse the fact that you've got that technology.
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Reziel
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Eternal Delegate
Warr
Apr 13 2008, 10:03 PM
Then where is the election of the RP administrator? Or is it a 'previous one picks the next' thing?

It continued until last night, as well. Kandarin even went so far as to accuse me of being an old member who was banned under a new alias.

Your Statement 1: would it be a problem, Warr?

Your statement 2: well... honestly, i've done just the same supposition.
Armis Exposcere Pacem
They demanded peace by force of arms


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Free Pacific States
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Number One Drone
Its a position appointed by the Delegate with confirmation of the Magisterial Assembly. Kandarin was appointed after my resignation to become Viceroy. There was nothing "shadowy" about it.

With that said, yes, there is a need for the Magisterial Assembly to pass another set of laws on RP since the old ones got deleted. Until such is done, however, the RP Administrator keeps operating off of the remembrance of the old law. Or, legally speaking, off the authority of the Delegate.

I'm not in a position to comment upon conversations to which I wasn't privy. If its resolved, though, there shouldn't be an issue.
The Federated Alliance of Free Pacific States | Lyon Republic | Republic of Xiopothos | East Pacific Treaty Organization
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Kandarin
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Warr
Apr 13 2008, 09:03 PM
Then where is the election of the RP administrator? Or is it a 'previous one picks the next' thing?

Funny you say that, because despite being established, I was up until last night continually badgered for every thought and action my nation took. Taking over an inactive landmass I had prior permission to take over? I was griped at with 'not having the capabilities' to do that, despite the nation I invaded being not only inactive, but from the seems of it had little RP up and nothing I could find in the archives.

It continued until last night, as well. Kandarin even went so far as to accuse me of being an old member who was banned under a new alias. He tried to take what he assumed to be an accurate assessment of me and my attitude, despite having only in most cases seen me argue; told me in base sense 'you can't have anything but small things because I don't like your attitude'.

That was resolved between he and I, however.

And I'd -probably- agree to rules which were actually posted as then it doesn't make things seem 'shadow government'.

Quote:
 
He tried to take what he assumed to be an accurate assessment of me and my attitude, despite having only in most cases seen me argue;


What you show me is what I know about you. I don't have a camera in your head and my knowledge (or, indeed, anyone's) of you can only be based on what we see you do. Indeed, all that others have told me about conversations with you has been pretty much the same, so I'm not basing things solely on my own experience here.

Quote:
 
told me in base sense 'you can't have anything but small things because I don't like your attitude'.


It's not what I don't like. I don't like a lot of things (ask around) but few if any of those dislikes get applied as anything approaching actual rules. The problem is that the sort of attitude you have demonstrated has demonstrated time and time again to be destructive to RP communities here, on the main NS forums, and elsewhere. When RPers take an openly antagonistic OOC approach, bad things happen. My responsibility is to keep that from getting out of control.

Quote:
 
That was resolved between he and I, however.


Actually, you cussed me out, then told me to delete all your posts and account if I disagreed with you. When I didn't delete your account, you acted as though I was okay with what you were doing and went from there.

Believing the mod staff to be draconian will not make it happen.
"Torpored Caitiff Antediluvian"

Quote:
 
ClipSnap says:
Kandarin should just implode from the sheer ridiculousness of it all.
ClipSnap says:
I mean, no nation could ever sustain that many contradicting belief systems and still exist.
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Infinite Loop
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Take Off, Eh?
Kandarin
Apr 16 2008, 05:04 PM
Believing the mod staff to be draconian will not make it happen.

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Loop and Kandarin Skulk about the EP Serving Takisis.
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Endorsements recieved ( 69 ) : Cupertino, 1 Infinite Loop, 2 Infinite Loop, Infinite Loop, Bob Mckenzie, Shinagami, Shortbus, Magic Emperor Ghaelon, Ghaelon, SLAK, Prarie squid, Alys Whitill, The Cabin Grrrrl, The Cabin Girl, hax0rstan, Black Wolf Furries, Mr OWL, Vladimir Harkonnen, Uncle Duke, McTropolis, Avignon, Caesar Calligula, Max Zorin, Deus Ex Fiat, Walter Koenig, The True Reich, Atlanta Constitution, Fark Propaganda Corps, The Knights of Colombus, Fertile Sputniks, Jude Streicher,Otto Skorzeny, Nicholas der Kirchwass, Megalocyathus, Lil Megalocyathus, Uncle Toms Nation, Simon Legree, Yatta_, Lowtax, Patriotute, Doctor Zaius, General Ursus, Corneluis the ape, Nova the wild human, Bright eyes taylor, Dr Zira, Alex Chiu, Honkey the Goose, StandartenFuerher, Neko Mimi, The NS Invaders, Free n Accepted Masons.Miss Tessmacher, Hurricane Jezebel ,Rbt E Lee ,Dead Yankee ,U S Grant ,General Mead, Baron Karza, Rowdy Roddy Piper, Col Sanders, Aunt Jemimas witnesses, of the people Q, Le French Stereotypes, Qfdsdiozbnf, Alan Scott, Baltar the Traitor, Mok Mok the Jawa, space kraken,
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Really Nice Hats
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Mo
I have just found what is probably the most practical use for a giant robot ever.
You'll never be completely rid of me.
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