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| Proceedings; How? | |
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| Topic Started: Dec 26 2009, 05:17:29 PM (1,009 Views) | |
| Allegheny | Dec 26 2009, 05:17:29 PM Post #1 |
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Partly Cloudy
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As the conclave we have the ability to put people who break the rules of the concordat and forums to trial. However in my browsing of this forum it seems that we have no formal rule on how the arbiters and viceroy are to go about proceeding with a trial. So therefore, unless I am blind and haven't seen where these rules are, then it is our duty to create a trial process that is both fair and impartial. At the moment I haven't come up with any real ideas but when I collect my thoughts on the matter I will post it. In the meantime what do you guys think of making a trial process? |
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Feb 25 2010, 05:54:42 AM Post #2 |
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Presently 2x Awesome
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A formal trial process is philosophically discussed in the current Disciplinary thread Allegheny, ctrl+f "Point Five". Seems to me there needs to be a Constitutional Committee, if you will, to discuss and make a clearly defined set of rules. |
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| Allegheny | Feb 25 2010, 08:45:00 AM Post #3 |
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Partly Cloudy
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Yes indeed. i found it deeply disappointing that nobody even responded to this post seeing as how this is important. |
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| Dyr Nasad | Feb 25 2010, 06:30:50 PM Post #4 |
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Slave to the Hive Mind
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I'm assuming that you will simply draw up your own standing orders, but if you want it legislated, just ask. ~DN~ |
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Feb 25 2010, 07:38:54 PM Post #5 |
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Presently 2x Awesome
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The purpose of this thread as stated by Allegheny is to define how proceedings go. As things currently state, the conclave appears to be completely unstructured and everyone is just winging it. |
National Rankings, Post Yours Today![]() ![]() “Trickery and treachery are the practices of fools that have not the wits enough to be honest” Benjamin Franklin | |
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| Allegheny | Apr 20 2010, 12:56:03 AM Post #6 |
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SO the conclave is supposed to be the sole court of this region, yet there isn't a process on how ne'er-do-wells are tried for their ne'er-do-welling. So here I am to make a proposal which I hope will modified to fit to everyone's likings and be a basis for our 'sole court.' Forum users, moderators, and Administrators are responsible for keeping these boards clean of people who take trolling and idiocy to the next levels. Therefore it is their responsibility to report any activity that could be considered an offense worth having a trial for? What is worth having a trial for? Obviously we can only have trials for people who are actually registered to the board. What happens when 'criminal' activity take s place on the game's RMB? A triable offense would be something like, constant forum trolling, voter fraud, treason, or anything really that can be considered against the concordat. Crimes that take place on the RMB are for the Delegate to deal with, however should that user also be a active forum member then it falls into the hands of the conclave. Now on to the proceedings. Once a 'crime' has been brought to the attention of the conclave, then a new trial thread must be created. Defendants will be given an opportunity to defend themselves with any evidence they think will vindicate their actions. Administrators will provide evidence to the conclave of the crime in action should that information be obtainable. Forum Users will be allowed to request to present incriminating and vindicating evidence in a separate thread. The Arbiters must be impartial and any arbiter who thinks they cannot be impartial is obligated to recuse themselves from the trial. The arbiters will hear all arguments for 1 week and then after it has been ascertained that a ruling can be created, the they shall do so. Voting shall take place over another 1 week period. A simple majority is all that is needed to determine innocence or guilt, once this has been done then the arbiters will create an appropriate punishment for the crime committed. In the event of a tie, the delegate will then be asked to review the trial over a 2 day period and then vote on guilt or innocence. The voting will be by a nay or yea posting and not by forum poll. (this is just a basic outline of how i think it can be done. feel free to rip it a new one.) |
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| Kandarin | Apr 20 2010, 02:02:45 AM Post #7 |
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Ferret princess
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The primary issue that I have to express with having formal trial procedures at all is that from the standpoint of an online forum on an online game, having a trial is very, very unwelcoming. We're all here to play a game and hang out with friends online, and getting put on trial by that community sends an unmistakeable signal that one is disliked there. I've never really seen anyone do trials in NS and not send that impression - when someone is put on trial it's clear that they're already on their way out, or at least wildly controversial. If were were a more across-the-board In-Character community this would be less of an issue, but NSers have a broad range of interpretations of how IC or OOC they are. That said, we did set up a game court, so game trials aren't so much of a novelty.
I don't think that TEP (the forum) and TEP (the region) should be legally enshrined as separate entities. To be sure, the former has a limit to its influence upon the latter in practice, but the Conclave should be able to use evidence from the RMB or ask the Delegate to remove a nation as a part of a sentence (and conversely, it should be able to contest ejections). Otherwise, it is all too easy for troublemakers to find the laxer of the two and stay there, to the detriment of both.
One issue that keeps coming up with such things is that again, 'trial' is a loaded word. It carries a distinct aura of seriousness, and I find that many of our forum members are extremely reluctant to put their necks out in what is perceived as a politically loaded situation. We must be careful not to limit who may present evidence, lest it become easier to convince those who have it not to bother than to argue against it. Otherwise, this looks fairly good and simple, and any trial procedure needs to stay simple. |
"Torpored Caitiff Antediluvian"
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| Der Fuhrer Dyszel | Apr 22 2010, 06:09:44 PM Post #8 |
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Cool like Snakes
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While my opinions have no jurisdiction here, I merely suggest that posts be directed and kept the topic at hand.....developing a formal system. This is not a thread discussing the need for one, rather, what the formal system is going to be. Allegheny has an excellent framework and those fine details should be worked out now in the subsequent posts! ![]() |
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| Allegheny | Apr 22 2010, 09:47:29 PM Post #9 |
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Partly Cloudy
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The reason i propose this is that by the time anyone commits any one of those crimes, they aren't here for the fun of the game anymore and need to be punished for it. Please take notice to the different things i mentioned. "A triable offense would be something like, constant forum trolling, voter fraud, treason, or anything really that can be considered against the concordat." These are all things that will ruin the fun factor of playing this game. For example, DFD is having a good RP going on and someone comes in and constantly tries to derail it on purpose. At that point they are the ones ruining the fun, not the trial itself. All other forums have set rules, if you break them too many times then you are banned. Unlike those forums we actually have a government. SO by saying that having a formal proceeding is not needed you might as well delete the entire government portion of the board, because every other one has a set proceeding and rule. Example of this would be the magisterium. As someone who is not a magister I am not allowed to comment in actual magister discussion threads. "WELL THAT JUST RUINS MY FUN FACTOR!" No, it doesn't, that rule is there for a reason, to keep unneeded clutter off the board. To your comment on RMB evidence, that can be used too... although its significantly harder to try someone who doesn't use the forums, thats why i think it should be the delegate's duty to punish that person.
As i said before trials should only be held for things like: constant forum trolling, voter fraud, treason, or anything really that can be considered against the concordat. any one who is doing that has already ruined their rep with the board and nobody should have a problem coming up with evidence against them, or even evidence that vindicates. |
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| Kandarin | Apr 23 2010, 07:10:40 PM Post #10 |
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Ferret princess
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This is a valid point and one I had not considered. If someone is already on their way out, there should be some format for getting them there. I've always been partial to punting them out the door unceremoniously, but that doesn't exactly encourage wider participation in the government. As to the procedures themselves:
No arguments here. A trial is a discussion in and of itself and should be given its own discussion space.
This is good - it's important to limit who uses a trial thread, lest it get sidetracked from the actual trial. For the most part (and you've listed the exceptions well for trial purposes), the same 'no posting without permission' principles that apply in the Magisterium should apply broadly in the Conclave. When people outside the Conclave do post, it should be within a framework such as this - Admins, arbiters and defendents in the thread, everyone else in another.
This is quite necessary, although it does create the possibility of a tie (which you've addressed), and it should be made clear that this is to be the norm.
One week is a good time period in which to hear evidence. All Arbiters should be able to be present and participate in that time. However, "After it has been ascertained that a ruling can be created" is a potential time muddle, though - we could get stuck on that for a very long time if every Arbiter hasn't unanimously expressed that they're ready. Voting should be opt-out and not opt-in; That is, any Arbiter ought to be able to object and say they need to hear more evidence, but otherwise voting on guilt or innocence should proceed.
I like how this establishes a limited time for voting (though it should perhaps be shorter). The Conclave will always have varying rates of activity and sometimes waiting for everyone to vote would mean extending the trial indefinitely.
This provides a similar timetable to the above Arbiter voting limit, which is good. Of course, a Delegate cannot be active every day, so they should be able to specify which two days.
Absolutely. The voting record of Arbiters should be quite clear, as a safeguard against the possibility of Arbiters not recusing themselves when proper. Citizens should be able to spot that and point it out. NOTE: Editted by DFD as per the annoying typo that prevented the quotes from being seen. I changed the . to a / in the fourth quote and that is all. |
"Torpored Caitiff Antediluvian"
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| Allegheny | Apr 28 2010, 02:54:54 PM Post #11 |
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Partly Cloudy
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I really have no objections to any of the changes you think are needed to make this work. Also for the recuse thing, i think that before the trial starts the Arbiters should point out any reason why another Arbiter should recuse themselves. For example, say User 1 has been doing nothing but trolling. It is clear that I am User 1's friend through observation by other users and I have yet to recuse myself. Other arbiters who have observed my relation to user 1 should confront me and explain why I should recuse myself. |
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| Barb | May 28 2010, 08:23:04 AM Post #12 |
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Sergeant Hobo 678
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One thing that would make my involvement easier would be a locked thread controlled by the Viceroy that functions as the Calendar of the Conclave. I could subscribe and receive an e-mail alert if a new issue was presented for consideration. I really can't be counted on to buzz the forum daily to see if I'm being a slacker Arbiter or not. I agree that recusal should be encouraged for conflicts of interest, but if we are all people of integrity, then a suggestion another Arbiter should sit this one out should be back channel (by PM) and the choice itself left up to the Arbiter. I know recusal is subject to abuse. That would be a matter for the Viceroy and TEP government to deal with - or we could set up a private thread to discuss it. In my opinion, proceedings like this can get easily sidetracked and there should be no public distraction from the issue at hand - specifically no personal attacks on the honesty, fairness, or truthiness of Arbiters. Players shouldn't be able to play the referees. I like Allegheny's idea that matters not languish indefinitely. I second Kandarin's concern about the word trial. There's a lot of baggage in that word about rights and representation and rules of procedure and who has standing. IRL there are administrative hearings where people are presented with evidence, asked to respond to it, and a panel asks questions, then decides what the best response will be. Conclave Practices need not be set in stone because doing that might box us in and create perverse consequences where some decisions are made because of a technicality rather than fundamental fairness. Some general guidelines are a great idea. They can evolve as we learn about what works best. Courts IRL call them "local rules" and they don't require legislation. |
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Barb Arbiter Barbara Manatee Ulthar Ambassador to The East Pacific Convicted Thief of the Crown of the Vizier Keep TEP beautiful! The practice of peace and reconciliation is one of the most vital and artistic of human actions. - Thich Nhat Hanh
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| Kandarin | Jun 7 2010, 03:57:27 AM Post #13 |
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Ferret princess
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I realize this has strung out for a bit, but I want to let all new Arbiters put in a comment before trying to draft something final. |
"Torpored Caitiff Antediluvian"
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| TAO | Jun 14 2010, 07:13:43 AM Post #14 |
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Kilroy was here
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I find myself in total agreement with Barb. Especially about "local rules". |
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| Barb | Jun 22 2010, 01:54:07 PM Post #15 |
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Sergeant Hobo 678
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Todd came up with a great first draft and I suggested some tweaks. I'm looking forward to everyone's input on what will hopefully be a simple and flexible structure that will allow us to function as a team and get stuff done. None of it will be "set in stone." If we discover something is stupid or simply doesn't work, we change it. I was concerned with making proceedings predictable, orderly, and - to be frank - to cut the crap. Not that there has been any - LOL - just an attempt by Todd and I to commit to a starting place for addressing Kandarin's and Allegheny's excellent points in this thread. I know it's a virtual government on a game forum, but the consequences of what the Conclave does (and fails to do) for players and the region are real. We do no one - including ourselves - any good if we're perceived as a herd of cats (disorganized) or sheep (not thoughtful) and our proceedings look like a dog and pony show. OK, now I've run out of animal metaphors. Whatever we come up with in the end, my own guiding principle is that I will always have your back no matter how you vote. You may consider that a little preachy on my part and "goes without saying," but I think mutual respect should be explicit. |
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Barb Arbiter Barbara Manatee Ulthar Ambassador to The East Pacific Convicted Thief of the Crown of the Vizier Keep TEP beautiful! The practice of peace and reconciliation is one of the most vital and artistic of human actions. - Thich Nhat Hanh
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| Todd McCloud | Jun 22 2010, 02:05:49 PM Post #16 |
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Planet Telox
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Yep! It's certainly going pretty interesting so far! And I must agree to the points Barb made above - while this is indeed only a game, we still have to be level-headed and serious in our actions and dealings. I'll provide an explanation to the document as well, so hopefully everyone can understand a method to our madness, lol. |
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