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Disciplinary Action; Nation in Question: Kurdazistan
Topic Started: Feb 24 2010, 11:30:55 PM (1,996 Views)
Der Fuhrer Dyszel
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Attention Arbiters and members of The East Pacific community,

It has come to my attention that a nation of The East Pacific community has repeatedly infringed upon the rights of fellow Citizens of TEP. The nation in question is Kurdazistan. On several occasions Kurdazistan had unnecessarily and openly flamed other members of our community. Despite adequate warning, Kurdazistan proceeded to insult members of our community.

Being that our community does not support the actions of nations who knowingly and willingly insult community members, I advise my fellow Arbiters to take further measures to ensure that Kurdazistan no longer abuses members of our community. I propose that we initiate a temporary ban, to be effective immediately, for a duration of no less than one month from the time the decision was made, which is to be determined by the Conclave, as per Section 6 of Article C, in which "the Conclave may judge the actions of any nation in the East Pacific for violation of this Concordat and the laws of the East Pacific and sentence those found guilty."

Furthermore, according to Section 1 of Article F, Rights of Citizens:
"Each nation shall have the right to free speech and the government shall take no action to limit this except when a nation is determined to be acting deliberately to cause a public nuisance by the Conclave*."

While leniency has been granted to Kurdazistan, further more recent comments have been made, indicating that Kurdazistan has not heeded his warning and is now intentionally breaking the Concordat. He has shown a lack of respect towards the time and effort other members put into the community in addition to an obvious insult to a fellow Citizen of TEP, as evidenced by these actions:

Exhibit A: Kurdazistan's Response in Shiro Exiled
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Kurdazistan's comment in Shiro Exiled**

As you can see, Kurdazistan's remark can be taken very offensively by members who have put a considerable amount of time into their posts. While it may be easily overlooked, it was an unnecessary negative comment that breached the rules of the thread which also depicted an unwillingness to respect other members' contributions. Furthermore, it was a direct violation of the warning he had already been given, linked above.


Exhibit B: Kurdazistan Insulting a Fellow Citizen on the RMB

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Reziel's statement on the RMB


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Kurdazistan's response to Reziel's RMB posting


Again, the remark was directed towards a specific community member. It was unnecessary and insulting while additionally violating the warning he had previously been given.


As per these premises, I motion to open discussion concerning the disciplinary action of the nation/member Kurdazistan.

Der Fuhrer Dyszel


* Indicates added italics for the point of emphasis in that clause.
** The comment was administratively removed from the thread as per violation of thread rules.



Official Approval by Terasu

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;)

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Kurogasa
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I feel it's my responsability to point out this to Kurd if he wants to do anything about it:

Section 3) Each nation shall have the right to a swift and impartial trial by the Conclave if action is taken against them by the regional authorities.

and yes, I think something must be done about Kurds behavior.

(I don't like deep posts, so that's it)
I don't want to conquer the world, I want the people to put me as their leader for themselves (or I will have to conquer it, anyways it will be mine soon).

"What is a rebel? A man who says no" -Albert Camus-

"The greatest joy a man can know is to conquer his enemies and drive them before him. To ride their horses and take away their possessions. To see the faces of those who were dear to them bedewed with tears, and to clasp their wives and daughters in his arms." -Genghis Khan-
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Kandarin
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I agree with the stated points and feel that at least a temporary ban is in order. Warnings have shown to be ineffective, and it would stretch belief to suggest that Kurdazistan's behavior is anything but deliberate.
"Torpored Caitiff Antediluvian"

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ClipSnap says:
Kandarin should just implode from the sheer ridiculousness of it all.
ClipSnap says:
I mean, no nation could ever sustain that many contradicting belief systems and still exist.
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Der Fuhrer Dyszel
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With Kurogasa's response, I suggest that we draw a decision by Sunday, February 28. I believe that would give adequate time for discussion among Arbiters and contributions from other members while additionally giving Kurdazistan time to formulate his response.

I personally do not want to see this drawn out any longer than necessary. There is no reason to overdramatize this course of action, but it is only fair to have a public discussion for all parties involved before the Arbiters draw their conclusion.

Official Approval by Terasu

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Terasu: "Well done DFD you imploded the universe"

:lol:


;)

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Kurdazistan
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I was impressed by the amount of time put into those posts. The second half of the sentence was a joke. By all means, bring a trial by conclave.
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Der Fuhrer Dyszel
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If that is your defense statement, then I imagine we can move to trial. But I would advise that you try to formulate a defense.

Official Approval by Terasu

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Terasu: "Well done DFD you imploded the universe"

:lol:


;)

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Kurdazistan
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*blinks* There is going to be hard.

The post you reference is OVER TWO YEARS OLD! Ladies and gentlemen that cannot be defined as 'adequate warning.' Particular importance should be displayed to the timing of that post, which was during the time of the Empire. We also had a nation known as Ramaba present in the region, and while I consider said nation a friend of mine, I am well-aware he is something of a troll. He was lobbying me to fight to allow him back in the region, and I did defend him at times.

The fall/removal of the Empire made everyone on high-alert. People were overly-aware of others and trying to figure them out, which is in part what brought such a post by Kandarin.

Furthermore, and most importantly, Kandarin stated,
Kandarin
Dec 23 2008, 03:36 AM
I am yet to see more than a couple of posts of yours that are not spum, flaming, thread-hijacking, pure nonsense, or otherwise unhelpful.

Clean up your act and be civil. This is your first and only warning.
I would of removed the last sentence for ease of flow, but I include it to show I am not hiding or taking anything out of context.

Feel free to look at the multitude of posts I have made in the World Assembly portion of these forums and tell me those are flaming/spum/thread-hijacking/pure nonsense.

Ladies and gentlemen, the entire idea of disciplining me over:
1. Trying to read into an insult that was not present, and
2. Offering Reizel a shirt to match his nose.

Is completely, utterly ridiculous. Are we a region devoid of humor, are we a region of hypersensitive, politically-correct basket cases? Ladies and gentlemen, I am well-aware I am using strong language. I believe such language is one of the beauties of the English language, as well as, an inherent right of free speech.

I move that this trial be acquitted on the grounds of violating Section 1 of Article F, Rights of Citizens, "Each nation shall have the right to free speech and the government shall take no action to limit this except when a nation is determined to be acting deliberately to cause a public nuisance by the Conclave." I also move that Kandarin apologize for deliberately and intentionally nit-picking every single action I have done since coming into the East Pacific.

If, however, the conclave feels the need to bring this to trial, I have no problem swiftly continuing to defend the right of all nations to freedom of speech, as well as, brilliantly crafted brown shirts.

Thank you for your time.

P.S. Conclaves meet before making any decision, unless the conclave is made up of Kurogasa and Kandarin, I feel all members of the conclave should have a say before bringing this to trial. Also, I respectfully feel both Kurogasa and Kandarin should review my posts in this thread before any further action is taken.
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Reziel
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*Reziel blinks

I'm a bit lost as I completely fail to understand Kurd's message on the RMB... how is a brown shirt related to my nose? And how my nose come into play talking about spum?

EDIT I've just been given a couple of interpretations about the brown shirt thing. Both are definitely bad, but TBH i see both of them so unrelated to the context of the RMB discussion that I can hardly feel offended by them. On the contrary, i won't say anything about the Shiro-spumming, as i suppose this is not an open discussion






Your Honors, I've just found out Kurdazistan has just sent me a NS telegram. As it could be helpful for this case, am I supposed to disclose it?
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Kurogasa
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Fair enough, I'll wait for Allegheny and Inquirius to say something before doing anything...
I don't want to conquer the world, I want the people to put me as their leader for themselves (or I will have to conquer it, anyways it will be mine soon).

"What is a rebel? A man who says no" -Albert Camus-

"The greatest joy a man can know is to conquer his enemies and drive them before him. To ride their horses and take away their possessions. To see the faces of those who were dear to them bedewed with tears, and to clasp their wives and daughters in his arms." -Genghis Khan-
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Kurdazistan
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To Reziel and all non-conclave members:
Der Fuhrer Dyszel
Feb 25 2010, 12:28 AM
With Kurogasa's response, I suggest that we draw a decision by Sunday, February 28.  I believe that would give adequate time for discussion among Arbiters and contributions from other members while additionally giving Kurdazistan time to formulate his response.

I personally do not want to see this drawn out any longer than necessary.  There is no reason to overdramatize this course of action, but it is only fair to have a public discussion for all parties involved before the Arbiters draw their conclusion.



I had intended on waiting for a response from all other conclave members, but if I do not write this now, I may not write it at all.

Point One: I would like to disagree with the timeframe proposed by DFD. I would not be surprised if it takes 24-48 hours to get a response from just a single forum/arbiter member; god knows how long it will take to get both. I hope we do, but people have schedules and do not always check every area of the forum on a daily basis.

We should take heed that this is a sudden push for conclave (out of nowhere, no warnings, no private messages, a person who didn't even know they were 'insulted' THAT HAD to be told by multiple sources, and after being told said they didn't see it that way). So we have a rushed trial, it is sheer luck I even found out this was occurring.

What would have happened if I had not realized this was occurring? We would see a DRAMATICALLY different discussion happening right now. Kandarin and DFD were preparing to take this immediately into conclave, when the correct step was for all members to have a say. Maybe I am reading into the above posts, but the language strongly implies this was the case.

Point Two: I request clarification on what kind of ban we are talking about. Temporarily banning me from the role-playing forum, the entire forum, the region, what?


Point Three: I would like to bring attention to the following fact about myself found in this thread.

Kurdazistan
Feb 25 2010, 03:36 AM
A fun fact about me, I am pretty ignorant of all things role-playing that don't involve two people in a room.  *whistles*  Anyways, I believe this is where I can post my opinions so here goes.


and

Point Four:
Kurdazistan
Feb 25 2010, 03:36 AM
P.S. I really LOVEEE how mods just delete things without saying a word or a warning like, "hey don't do that guy."  It is awesome.


It appears my post was deleted, there was no warning (other than this), no message to me. Not everyone knows all of the ins-and-outs of role-playing, and if someone does or says something which is not the norm in these forums or says something inappropriate for a given forum area, there should be a much better effort to educate them. There was ZERO, NADIA effort in this case, instead we have a call for a rushed conclave trial when a simple PM would of done and saved a lot of time and trouble.

edit
Point Five: Upon examination of the rules of the conclave, reviewing a PM sent to me that originally alerted me to this, and thinking about the procedure it seems to me the following is occurring. This thread was not the result of the conclave, and while I am sure the conclave can and will agree or disagree on the nature of these charges, I believe this thread should be considered a preliminary thread, and upon agreement by all conclave members, a new thread should be opened by the viceroy where I will stand trial. Since a conclave is a council or group of people, and an arbiter is a judge without sole authority...I am fairly confused as to the procedures.

I assume this trial will have neither a lawyer nor prosecutor, but simply I would take questions and answers by all members of the conclave. Of course, one member of the conclave could act as a prosecutor of sorts. Defining all members of the conclave as arbiters does not really make sense to me, since arbiters alone have authority and common sense infers the Conclave is a group of people.. this is the best I could come up with from reviewing the Duties of the Conclave post, other sources, and my personal background. Would the Viceroy please clarify on these five points?

Sorry for the postzilla, there was a lot to cover..if you made it to the end without skimming, well-done!
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Reziel
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Kurdazistan
Feb 25 2010, 11:00 AM
(out of nowhere, no warnings, no private messages, a person who didn't even know they were 'insulted' THAT HAD to be told by multiple sources, and after being told said they didn't see it that way)

If the 'person' is me, i suppose i'm entitled to a precisation. If not, I apologize to the Arbiters.

The fact that I wasn't aware of the 'insult' does not seem relevant. I wasn't on. I didn't see the message... but I'm honestly HAPPY to know that when I'm not online, i have FRIENDS who take care of me and get rather upset if i get insulted. Again, I'd like to think we're all friends. Among friends, one does not wait for another one to go out and then start badmouthing him/her behind his/her back. And if he does, other friends are more than entitled to react, if only to make it clear that similar things shouldn't happen.

About me not seeing it as an insult... my bad English has made me misunderstood. According to the interpretations I've been given, your post was rather mean and not so funny. But it was out-of-context, too... completely out-of-context, I'd say. That's why I cannot feel offended. Let me allow an example. If someone I do not know comes into a room where I'm lovably chatting with friends, screams "You're an asshole!" and goes away... well, the insult and the mean behavior are blatantly evident. Do I feel offended? No. The person is obviously not-so-present-to-himself, therefore I simply shrug and ignore the fact.
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Allegheny
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Wow this is what I wake up to....

anyways.... I have reviewed this thread in it's entirety and I feel that disciplinary action should be taken for the insults and snark that you were warned for by kandarin. The fact that it was two years ago does not matter you were warned and you and even in the post you went ahead a didn't take it seriously.

There are people here who take their RP seriously whether it is in an OOC thread or an IC thread so i can see where someone may be insulted by your first comment. Secondly it is not cool to call someone a brown noser. If you can't see why the second is doubly offensive then maybe you should think before you type.

I have come to the conclusion that a ban is indeed a proper punishment, HOWEVER a 1 month ban is really excessive. I propose that should Kurd be convicted a 3 day ban should be enough.

I think there is room for a sense of humor but when you continue to point your sense of humor at other people who may take it the wrong way you kind of a had it coming. For all intensive purposes joke around but sometimes you have to be careful.
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Allegheny
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Another point i would like to make is how we are supposed to go about this. I propose that since the arbiters are supposed to be impartial judges that no arbiter should be allowed to take part in the prosecution process. If an arbiter should want to be the prosecution, that person should be temporarily stripped of the arbiter position so that they are not allowed to vote on whether said defender is guilty or not.

The defender should be allowed to pick another person to help represent them. The defender can defend themselves if they wish.

should there be a tie in guilty and not guilty votes the provost will take the last vote to break the tie. That is after the provost reviews the trial thoroughly.
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Der Fuhrer Dyszel
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Kurdazistan, the fact that you are taking discussion of this action outside the thread and referencing this action in threads it is not relevent within is again further proof that you have absolutely no intentions to change.

The fact that you took this as a joke in the first place shows a lack of sincerity in your actions.

A warning is a warning, regardless of the time that passed. If you are sincere you should not need to be constantly warned to change your behaviors.

Perhaps now is a moment which you should stop and reflect on your actions before responding. We embrace humor, but not at the expense of other people's hard work and effort put into this region. I understand if you think this is ridiculous, but when a person is showing an unwillingness to change, it is more damaging to the community to continue to allow that person to act as such.

Put yourself into the shoes of a new member, new to the game, like we all were at some point. How would you feel if you signed onto the RMB and saw another member insulting another regional member for posting something that did not merit that response? Actions such as that, while you may think it is harmless fun, turns away potential members.

While you may be thinking it is a joke, many of us here look at how "jokes" effect the system and the community. While you are only thinking of your own humor, many of us are thinking how our actions play out on a larger scale. It is our job as Arbiters to ensure that TEP's community is protected, and this is what we are doing here.

Thank you for taking the time to post your defense. I will consider what you mentioned and put my thoughts into it in a moment. Also, consider this another warning Kurdazistan, watch your posting in other threads with irrelevent comments related to this thread. This is the thread for discussion related to this matter, not any other thread.


Allegheny, the time length on your ban will also be considered. Perhaps a week should suffice well enough.


Official Approval by Terasu

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Terasu: "Well done DFD you imploded the universe"

:lol:


;)

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Kurdazistan
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Being warned twice is not constant. You guys are all a bunch of jokers. I'll do the great Kandarin a favor and make my leave of this forum.

Have a great life. Be careful when going outside in strong winds, I wouldn't want to see you all crumble to bits.
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Der Fuhrer Dyszel
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In regards to Kurdazistan's voluntary departure from the region, I motion that no action be immediately taken. We shall honor Kurdazistan's word and trust that he shall depart in peace.

However, should he return, I motion that a temporary ban be instituted. Should he prove to be sincere in his actions, he can return from the ban with a clean record.

Should further action result, he shall receive one warning. Violation of that one warning, despite the time that has passed since that warning, shall result in a permenant ban.



While I respect each member and value diversity of opinion, we need to look at how negative members can harm the potential growth of our region. Our active voices need to be welcoming and respectful, not insulting and flaming, if we ever wish to increase activity in this region.

Official Approval by Terasu

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MASTER OF PSYCHOSODOMY

You can't ignore my girth.


Terasu: "Well done DFD you imploded the universe"

:lol:


;)

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Kandarin
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Der Fuhrer Dyszel
Feb 26 2010, 05:35 AM
However, should he return, I motion that a temporary ban be instituted. Should he prove to be sincere in his actions, he can return from the ban with a clean record.

Should further action result, he shall receive one warning. Violation of that one warning, despite the time that has passed since that warning, shall result in a permenant ban.

While I doubt he will be able to change, I support this motion.
"Torpored Caitiff Antediluvian"

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ClipSnap says:
Kandarin should just implode from the sheer ridiculousness of it all.
ClipSnap says:
I mean, no nation could ever sustain that many contradicting belief systems and still exist.
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Inquirius
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This looks like a happy ending for TEP and Reziel. I support DFD's conclusion, and I think this was the ideal outcome. At first I was reluctant to turn this into the business of the Conclave, because we absolutely should not prosecute someone for just being unpleasant. There is something dirty about trying to whitewash the way people post on this forum and the RMB, and I want to avoid using judicial powers to do that despite the fact that the Concordat technically allows us to do so. However, the only other way to go about this would have been to return fire on the RMB. That would have reflected poorly on all of us. Here's to hoping that Kurdazistan does not force us to carry out the temporary ban.
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Allegheny
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Yes. DFD's proposal is acceptable to me.
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Kurogasa
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I think that's the only thing we can do, so I support DFD's motion...
I don't want to conquer the world, I want the people to put me as their leader for themselves (or I will have to conquer it, anyways it will be mine soon).

"What is a rebel? A man who says no" -Albert Camus-

"The greatest joy a man can know is to conquer his enemies and drive them before him. To ride their horses and take away their possessions. To see the faces of those who were dear to them bedewed with tears, and to clasp their wives and daughters in his arms." -Genghis Khan-
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Todd McCloud
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Is there anything I need to do in regards to this? Like, do I need to banject him for a week?
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Allegheny
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umm... i don't think so. I think the consensus was we are going to temp ban him when ever he becomes active again. at the moment he has left willingly.

at least thats what i got out of all this.
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Todd McCloud
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Alright. Was he supposed to leave the region in addition to the forums, or just the forums?
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Allegheny
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No the temp ban was only for the forums. I guess he left because he got mad we were gonna prosecute.
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Todd McCloud
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Allegheny
Feb 28 2010, 08:10 PM
No the temp ban was only for the forums. I guess he left because he got mad we were gonna prosecute.

Ah, okay. Thanks for the clarification.
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"You must be the change you want to see in the world" - Gandhi
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Kurdazistan
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Allegheny
Feb 28 2010, 06:10 PM
No the temp ban was only for the forums. I guess he left because he got mad we were gonna prosecute.

I did not get mad, I gave myself an excused absence left b/c I have better things to do. I said I would think about it and come back in a week (and probably decide to maintain the absence permanent).

I think this entire thread is a joke and a poor reflection on the conclave. Unless all members of the conclave agreed via PM or some more private area of the forum regarding this matter it seems this action was a bilateral action (DFD and Kandarin), however, DFD speaks about it like everyone agreed before the thread was posted and brought to my attention.

Agreeing after the fact and agreeing before such a thing is raised is rather important.

I don't see much point in further participating in this forum, since I have arrived in the East Pacific Kandarin and I have butted heads for reasons I am not aware.

I would enjoy seeing me prosecuted for telling someone they are a suck-up and making an innocent comment about a RP thread. That my friends, is the greatest joke of all. This thread gets an A for ass.

(You guys are what 18-30+. Someone did not say they absolutely loved something you did to death? They did not want to put it up on the fridge? Go cry to your mommy about it).

I do not lie about my feelings and then stab you in the back. Since I was obviously not appreciated, I left. Since nothing indicates this will change, I go back to said course of action.

Idea: Maybe the new delegate can make banning people with opinions part of their campaign? It will sure promote activity in these times of inactivity. *frowns*
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Kurdazistan
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P.S. I just made one other post in the Delegate Election thread. I won't be coming back here except for two conditions. The first I won't name, but will be seen (and I doubt will happen so there's no need to go there).

The second is people proceed to make comments regarding this and/or I am for some reason afraid of being prosecuted. I am already aware DFD says this was not going to be pursued if I did not come back, but this conclave should not be run unilaterally or bilaterally.

Conclaves should have strong members, but should make judgments (judgments = calling action to an issue or to a person, and the ultimate rulings over those issues/persons) multilaterally.

If you do not make decisions multilaterally, you should stop calling this body a conclave.

I would like to challenge all conclaves members to think of what I have raised in this final post and dare I say discuss it here or somewhere else. Perhaps this may be raised by a future delegate, who knows..

edit: clarification
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Allegheny
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Yeah you got mad son. Also yes we do consulte each other in private over MSN.

Edit: I cry to my mother everyday.
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Der Fuhrer Dyszel
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Yes, he got mad. :lol:


But as it stands, he returned after he said he would depart and the temporary ban should go into motion immediately.

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MASTER OF PSYCHOSODOMY

You can't ignore my girth.


Terasu: "Well done DFD you imploded the universe"

:lol:


;)

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yk001nul
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Public Servant No. 1 of Fyrdowsi
Allegheny
Mar 4 2010, 06:39 AM


Edit: I cry to my mother everyday.

For real? :blink:
Oh well, a rebel stays a rebel in my experience. The question is, how much rebellious can it be? Lower than before? Higher? Hmm...
"Freedom is only in the eye of the beholder."
Word-bearer Humayrah Fog, Towards Global Conversion of Everyone into the Superior Way (27 AE)

"Lo, have you not heard how He created Fear, from which all life trickles through? Thus through Fear must all law be upheld, for it is the only barrier between Mankind and Eternal Damnation." - 4:13 Recitations

Unbelievers, understand our history, flock to the Fyrdowsi Theocracy today, and save thyselves from eternal damnation!
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