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Discussion of Recent Administrative Actions
Topic Started: Jun 2 2010, 07:30:47 PM (3,660 Views)
East Malaysia
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Free Pacific States
Jun 10 2010, 04:05 PM
Frankly, I cannot disagree more. By granting the Conclave authority over the administration, we are giving the government authority over the administration, and I just don't feel that proper.


Can't agree more!
I think administration should be more than able to remove its own members if they need it, not he Conclave.
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Todd McCloud
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Planet Telox
Well, it was only a suggestion, lol. But I do like to try and take the other viewpoint and see if it holds any merit. It appears that those who have spoken up or have shown their opinion would like the government to be separate from the administration. I can see both sides having pros and cons, but I think the biggest pro to this particular argument is that the administration cannot be 'broken up' by the government, the break up has to come from within. If the admin team is to make its own decisions and call its own shots, I think they can be entrusted to that - after all, we entrust them with helping our forums and doing a lot of actions that require a certain level of trust and respect among peers in this region. So yeah, that makes sense to me.

I believe whoever the admin team selects (or whoever does the selecting), they will find active people who they can trust and relate to, people who have good knowledge and good intentions for the region. With the retirement of FPS, the busyness of Kand and Kelssek, the removal of some admin that don't need to be there (Thel, maybe a few 'extra' accounts), and the potential of the root adminship going to Pack, this makes for some new changes. I'm more inclined for the admin team to do the selection with that, and if they need help, well, others may help, lol. I don't know. I mean, I'm certain there are suggestions, but yeah. Here's what I think:

- One root (Pack, technically two with Loop)
- 4 forum admins
- 1 governmental admin (viceroy)
- two RP global mods (I am leaning toward thinking this way, rather than an admin and a global mod, etc).
- a few other global mods.
- We keep the old team on, but 'trim' down some inactives or clones, etc

*shrugs* What about that? And do others agree the admin team should do all their hiring / removals from within, or should the government get involved? I'm not trying to lead discussion or anything, just trying to see what others think, lol.
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Alejandro the Penguin
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Free Pacific States
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I'd be alright with it, though I don't know that we need four forum admins, 2 or maybe 3 ought to be enough.
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Todd McCloud
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Free Pacific States
Jun 10 2010, 08:08 PM
I'd be alright with it, though I don't know that we need four forum admins, 2 or maybe 3 ought to be enough.

My thinking was with Kand and Kelssek being a bit on the busy side (or will be at least, lol), two more would help balance things, so that at most times at least one is on to help with urgent problems *shrugs* I don't know, I figured they'll figure it out, probably.
"Your uniform doesn't seem to fit. You're much too alive in it."

"You must be the change you want to see in the world" - Gandhi
"The worst prison would be a closed heart." - Pope John Paul II
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Free Pacific States
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Number One Drone
That makes sense, actually. 4 sounds fine.

I'd say get ride of Meg and Thel and Nurse, sure, but SysOp ought to be kept around. Back when I was actively administrating, it was very useful for testing permissions and user groups.

As a note to the admins, btw, I couldn't help but notice when removing my permissions that there are several defunct permission masks. Might not be a bad idea to clean those out. Just a thought. :)
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Reziel
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Free Pacific States
Jun 10 2010, 09:05 PM
Frankly, I cannot disagree more. By granting the Conclave authority over the administration, we are giving the government authority over the administration, and I just don't feel that proper.

Yep... same for me.

Honest, Todd: the whole idea of a quick and clean process is nice and everything... but it won't work. TEP is not a quick region. Under Gnidrah, i was serving as public prosecutor... and methink we've basically never been really able to get a final judicial pronunciation on ANYTHING without taking numberless months.

It cannot work when an admin is involved. There, he's either being a bit jerkish (and in that case he gets an ass-kicking by the root admin, which HAS to be enough) or he has lost his mind (and in that case he gets slice-throated by the same rootadmin without so many discussions): in both cases, no excesses of uber-democracy seem specifically relevant.

:2c:
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They demanded peace by force of arms


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Todd McCloud
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Planet Telox
Reziel
Jun 11 2010, 04:07 AM
Free Pacific States
Jun 10 2010, 09:05 PM
Frankly, I cannot disagree more. By granting the Conclave authority over the administration, we are giving the government authority over the administration, and I just don't feel that proper.

Yep... same for me.

Honest, Todd: the whole idea of a quick and clean process is nice and everything... but it won't work. TEP is not a quick region. Under Gnidrah, i was serving as public prosecutor... and methink we've basically never been really able to get a final judicial pronunciation on ANYTHING without taking numberless months.

It cannot work when an admin is involved. There, he's either being a bit jerkish (and in that case he gets an ass-kicking by the root admin, which HAS to be enough) or he has lost his mind (and in that case he gets slice-throated by the same rootadmin without so many discussions): in both cases, no excesses of uber-democracy seem specifically relevant.

:2c:

I know, I was just exploring the other viewpoint, making sure that the other side had a chance to see if it could work, lol. It appears that it won't, and I wrote a post on how non-government intervention could and probably would be better. We'll see what happens. So, yep! :fish:
"Your uniform doesn't seem to fit. You're much too alive in it."

"You must be the change you want to see in the world" - Gandhi
"The worst prison would be a closed heart." - Pope John Paul II
Vekaiyu's Wiki Page | Ikrisia Levinile's Wiki Page | Listonia's Wiki Page
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Der Fuhrer Dyszel
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Cool like Snakes

We are overlooking the most troubling concerns that surfaced in this entire scenario....the concern that started the escalading tension we saw earlier and the concerns that have escaladed pretty much every problem we saw recently in TEP. That concern is the nature of humanity and that the admins are as human as the rest of us, capable of the same human mistakes, human errors, and protective instincts build into all of us.

Providing an example from RP, the concern we have is like that of which occurs from RP circles, the people with whom you often RP with. When you begin RP'ing with someone, you either find that you work well with the person or you do not work well with him or her. If you do not work well with that RP'er, you tend to look for someone else to really RP with and work with. When you do work well, you start building each other's plots more, you start PM'ing each other and collaborating. You might move to MSN or another medium and start talking more. After some time, you look back and realize you have built yourself a pretty good friendship.

Then your fellow RP'er is "attacked" by someone else. Well you believe that you know your fellow RP'er better than the said accusor and so you jump to your fellow RP'er side, defending his or her innocence without quite reading into the argument being presented. Thus we have created "the blind argument."

We have seen it tons of times in this region inside and outside of RP. I am not condemning the act of building friendships in this game and the inevitable drawback of building such friendships. I only point out that this tendency is as unavoidable as the 'flight or fight' stress response and no one is "above" it, including the admins.

We know that the admins are trustworthy people; few will argue that they are not. What many have failed to consider is that the admins are as faulty as an entire entity as the rest of us. They have spent years working together with a common goal, that time put into working together inevitably creates a situation where an admin is more likely to support and defend a fellow admin without quite reading into the depths of the argument.

Again, we cannot prevent blind arguments because it assumes that we are above human nature. Even those of us with RL training in remaining objective still are sucked into situations where they must "blindly" argue for someone; like a lawyer for his guilty subject, a nurse for his ignorant patient, or a police officer for his erring partner. Despite anyone's RL training in objectivity, we all fall prone to the inevitable tendency to defend what it is we care about. This is the magnanimous glory of passion.


As such, we must consider this tendency and create some body that oversees the admins actions when necessary. Again, no on is suggesting that this governing body should monitor and intervene in all admin actions, just the questionable ones where another opinion is warranted. I really believe most of us are more closely arguing the same points without realizing it, having been getting too caught up in semantics or the presentation of argument.

From what I have read, no one is saying that "the government" (ie: the Concordat and its functions) should regulate admin actions. The Conclave seems to have been suggested because the Conclave is supposed to be a jurisdiction section of TEP that is consisted of active members who tend to be more objective, members who have faced adversity and stood up for what they believed in despite the negative repercussions. It is composed of people who can argue one another, debate their beliefs, and still work to come to a conclusion. It is the type of people that Conclave attracts that has created the idea to suggest that Conclave partake on acting as the jury in decisions which merit outside intervention.

Again, all systems but the admins have a series of checks and balances. It is necessary to keep all functions in equal power status. Even maintainence crews are subject to answer to someone. We cannot fully rely on admins to be able to solve their own crises when we have one or two active admins.....and then, I can fully understand why it is difficult to argue amongst each other. It is all too often easy to chalk up your concerns to an over reaction or stupid internet drama when you do not have any one else to really bounce those concerns off of and it is more easy to compromise on expressing those concerns.

Addtionally, I want to point out two schools of thought that are differing. Many people seem to like to believe that problems should be dealt with behind the scenes, off the forums, resolved and disputed as to not create unnecessary drama. On the other hand, you have another group of people who believe that problems should be dealt with in the open, exposed, resolved as a region. While there can be many compromises and not every situation exposed and dealt with, especially those of RP concerns that often are resolved well outside of the forums, there are issues that need to be addressed in public.

Prior to me exposing what had happened, how many people actually knew about what happened? How many of you know about the times over the past year admin powers have been abused that have not touched the forums? How many of you thought that this whole issue was not really a problem until we broke down exactly why it is a problem either in private or on this thread?

I say this because when we always deal with problems in private, the community becomes blind to the actual problems that are going on. No one has to involve themselves in this thread, but it exists to bring to light recent events and show that problems in fact do exist and have existed for some time. It is each members choice then to involve themselves with the debate or not; and if they still feel that there are no problems, they need not involve themselves further. Those that had no idea that there were no problems in existence because they lack MSN or do not interact with members on a more personal level, are informed of the issues and can give their insight into them.

As you can tell, I am NOT of the school of thought that believes in dealing with all things away from public face. I am much more of a fan of resolving issues publically. I had personally over the past few months been thrown into this debate, having one school of people prefering that I would just message them with all my concerns rather than verbalizing them publically but then I have others insisting I deal with problems on the forums and yet others believing that I have done nothing since half of what I have done was behind the scenes.

Now this is a battle that will never be won, as it pertains to each individual scenario. However, I can say that I will continue to do what I "feel" is right and that is what will be the guiding choice in what I do to resolve issues. I also must say that if you are in the school of thought that prefers taking things off-forums, you better listen when I do bring up the concerns off-site because I will bring it to public light when the concerns are not taken seriously or resolved in private. :P

But again, this is not an attack on one school of thought or another, or on one person or another, but it is a presentation of what has been going on behind the scenes so that everyone is aware that problems do exist....many just have not been publically expressed for one reason or another.


And I have digressed. :P I am wordy, to say the least. The whole point of this topic is that I still believe a system of checks and balances needs to be in place, especially until we have a new set of admins who can resolve this issue when they are established. Sometimes external regulation and involvement is needed until an internal balance is acheived.....you know, like external fixation of a fractured bone. ;)

No one is necessarily saying it should be government regulated as they were proposing a group of people that work well with conflict to take up this role.

Not all issues can be resolved or SHOULD be resolved privately, despite the idea that many people hate drama and do not want to get their hands dirty. A problem is a problem, conflict is conflict, they are ugly situations many times but look at this.....no one is walking out of here holding a grudge or no longer friends with anyone. The situation got ugly, but it is being resolved. No one was hurt, no friendships ruined, and people realize there are bigger problems and see that people are working to resolve them. Ergo, conflict is not bad. :P Drama is sometimes necessary.


And I'll shut up now before I write another epic.

^_^

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Terasu: "Well done DFD you imploded the universe"

:lol:


;)

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Todd McCloud
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I will agree, I think since this whole topic has been brought out in the open I think some have been able to vent some pent-up feelings either in this thread or to others more privately. And any time that happens, well, it sucks at first but the end result is that it's worth it, as long as we didn't lose anyone over it. And I don't think we have (and if we did, we will drag you back here!!).

To decide whether or not to go public with an issue... I usually try to settle it in private first, then go public about it if I feel nothing's being done to resolve it. I rarely go public about it but, considering people here are speaking in a civil and patient manner, I will go public if the situation is bad enough to merit it. Why? Well, it's best to resolve the problem and get it out in the open than to let it fester or let others continuously feel bad and potentially create middle men in the process. So, this thread has at least changed some of my viewpoints. Again, I don't normally have major problems here, but it's nice to know that if I do and I feel it is necessary it can be addressed here. I was reluctant to do so before; I am more obliged to do it now.

In short, I guess it's the severity of the issue as to when an issue should be brought into the forum as opposed to dealt with privately. Qualms between members are one thing, and yeah, usually two or three people can work things out themselves. If it involves more than that, or simply *should* be made known to the forums, then so be it. Admins are human, as you said, but if a good team is in place after all is said and done here, we probably won't need to worry. Doesn't hurt to lay some groundwork though.

That said, I think the necessity for a check and balance system will probably decrease with the addition of new admins / global mods. There will be a new list of players who have different ways to go about things, and I believe the new 'mix' will prevent a lot of that 'blind argument', just because it's a new team. Nothing against the old team, really, it's just that adding people in can usually settle things down. We shall see, but yeah. I am not sure at this time what can check and balance an admin team without government intervention (which, I agree, *no one* here is proposing), except for an admin team that checks and balances itself. If the team is able to check and balance itself, well, that's a good solution as far as I'm concerned.
"Your uniform doesn't seem to fit. You're much too alive in it."

"You must be the change you want to see in the world" - Gandhi
"The worst prison would be a closed heart." - Pope John Paul II
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Der Fuhrer Dyszel
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Cool like Snakes

Random note: I addressed this topic as DFD, not as delegate. :P I would have addressed it regardless of whatever position I had....as to help remove the element of "government" intervention.

:lol:

Official Approval by Terasu

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You can't ignore my girth.


Terasu: "Well done DFD you imploded the universe"

:lol:


;)

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Chancellor Shaw
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Don't be a troll Alejandro, I don't think anyone asked your opinion. Be constructive or keep your thoughts to yourself.
Thank you for your time
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packilvania
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As forum staff, I must remind people that trolling, swearing with no point, and posting of irrelevant items in a non-spum friendly place is prohibited.
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The Angel of Death
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packilvania
Jun 12 2010, 05:32 PM
As forum staff, I must remind people that trolling, swearing with no point, and posting of irrelevant items in a non-spum friendly place is prohibited.

So fun isnt allowed.
I understand.
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Alejandro the Penguin
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The Alejandro Factor
The Angel of Death
Jun 13 2010, 01:39 AM
packilvania
Jun 12 2010, 05:32 PM
As forum staff, I must remind people that trolling, swearing with no point, and posting of irrelevant items in a non-spum friendly place is prohibited.

So fun isnt allowed.
I understand.

I concur with this statement.

'Tis sad.
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Der Fuhrer Dyszel
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I mean you can do it if you choose, but you may also face a fate like that of Govind's. So by all means, the choice is everyone's to make, but one learns to take the consequences that result from destructive decisions.

:lol:

Official Approval by Terasu

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MASTER OF PSYCHOSODOMY

You can't ignore my girth.


Terasu: "Well done DFD you imploded the universe"

:lol:


;)

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Todd McCloud
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Not sure what happened here, but I'll assume it was fairly bad trolling.
"Your uniform doesn't seem to fit. You're much too alive in it."

"You must be the change you want to see in the world" - Gandhi
"The worst prison would be a closed heart." - Pope John Paul II
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Kandarin
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Ferret princess
Just to clarify, since the subject changed several times:

Do we have a consensus here on whether the Viceroy should have admin powers?
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ClipSnap says:
Kandarin should just implode from the sheer ridiculousness of it all.
ClipSnap says:
I mean, no nation could ever sustain that many contradicting belief systems and still exist.
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Deleted User
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Perhaps!

Sorry. I just got here.
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