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Standing Orders of the Conclave, draft:
Topic Started: Jun 22 2010, 03:16:28 PM (2,392 Views)
Allegheny
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I was reading the Trial process and I do not see any clauses stating that the defendant may enlist the help of another in their defense. Should we allow this? What if the defendant becomes inactive? Do we just try he/she without a defense? Is the case put on hold?

And im not talking about witnesses, Im talking about somebody who might wanna hellp defend the accused person(s)
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Todd McCloud
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Allegheny
Jun 24 2010, 06:16 PM
I was reading the Trial process and I do not see any clauses stating that the defendant may enlist the help of another in their defense. Should we allow this? What if the defendant becomes inactive? Do we just try he/she without a defense? Is the case put on hold?

And im not talking about witnesses, Im talking about somebody who might wanna hellp defend the accused person(s)

You mean like if they wanted an attorney? Well... I'd support this. I mean, it's in the real-life Miranda Rights, and I suppose it would make a trial more... fun? Okay, maybe fun isn't the right word, lol, but if someone wanted to have one, I wouldn't mind it.

The way it's set up right now, if the accuser(s) is not present, the trial is dropped, but if they accused person(s) is not present, their defense is simply not counted. I think it'd be bad personally if we dropped a trial just because there isn't a defense - it just prolongs the judicial system. If the person cares, he or she (or they) will show, unless they need time or something comes up that takes their time away from here, in which they may ask for more time, as it is stated, as per the decision of the Viceroy. I can see maybe an extra few days or maybe even a week needed, but months? No, I don't think that'd be workable.
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Allegheny
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Ok, I agree with just going ahead and not counting the defense in a trial, If they aren't there for it then they are just hurting themselves.


As for an attorney.. well not something so formal, say I got accused of something and I wanted help with my defense. I should be allowed the right to ask to bring in somebody to help formulate my defense. Obviously most of the defense would have to be presented by myself, but it would be nice to have someone to bounce ideas and strategies off of. I don't know if that makes any sense.
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Kurogasa
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Allegheny
Jun 24 2010, 09:10 PM
As for an attorney.. well not something so formal, say I got accused of something and I wanted help with my defense. I should be allowed the right to ask to bring in somebody to help formulate my defense. Obviously most of the defense would have to be presented by myself, but it would be nice to have someone to bounce ideas and strategies off of. I don't know if that makes any sense.

==Article F: Rights of Citizens==

Section 6) Each nation shall have the right to legal counsel in a trial before the Conclave.
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Barb
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I certainly can imagine feeling in over my head and wanting a more senior player I trusted to consult with or even to speak on my behalf.

No need to add anything into SOC that's already in the Concordat. We might have a requirement that any defendant invoking representation must positively confirm with the Conclave who is their representative so their rep isn't accused of speaking out of turn in a trial thread.

We have not contemplated - nor in my opinion do we need at present - to allow "friend of the court" posts by nations not party to the matter.

The SOC as proposed doesn't have an adversarial process where the parties examine and cross examine each other. The parties each present their case and we do any questioning we deem necessary. There's no "lawyering" in the sense of raising objections, filing motions, or directly questioning the other party other than within the context of presenting one's side of the story.
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TAO
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Having FINALLY read through all of this (and liking what I see), I think it prudent to say that structure is important but there need also be a level of flexibility for those items and moments when we are faced with something that appears to exist outside the box.

There exists the possibility that too much rigidity will do nothing more than pissify a community when the structure is challenged and some members will have RL hurt feelings -- I have seen it happen many times in this game. While there is no sure fire way to avoid this, leaving some ~wiggle~ in the guidelines does offer the chance to release much of the extra pressure and be a constant reminder that even these moments are part of a game.

Regarding a "Friend at Court" ... that should only be allowed (imo) if the Court decides such a presence would benefit the proceeding. Either side could petition for a friend to "testify" but the Court would need to OK it. Restricting who has time in front of the camera (so to speak) will take less time and make for a more focused proceeding.
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Todd McCloud
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Planet Telox
Yeah, in regards to having a more senior member or even a person who might be a little more savvy with the laws represent them, I thought about that, which is why I kind of added the "s" in the accusers or the accused persons. While those who help out with the trial are certainly not being accused or probably not doing the accusing, they still represent that part of the trial, and can still offer that sort of help. Seeing as it's already mentioned in the Concordat, it might not be necessary to add it into the document.

But, of course, I still can, lol. What I could do is add in a separate clause stating either accused or accused persons may call upon another member to assist them with the trial, pending the approval of the Viceroy. Would that work?
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Todd McCloud
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Planet Telox
TAO
Jun 28 2010, 07:22 AM
Having FINALLY read through all of this (and liking what I see), I think it prudent to say that structure is important but there need also be a level of flexibility for those items and moments when we are faced with something that appears to exist outside the box.

There exists the possibility that too much rigidity will do nothing more than pissify a community when the structure is challenged and some members will have RL hurt feelings -- I have seen it happen many times in this game. While there is no sure fire way to avoid this, leaving some ~wiggle~ in the guidelines does offer the chance to release much of the extra pressure and be a constant reminder that even these moments are part of a game.

I've been reading some trials across the feeders over the past few weeks, and I think the biggest thing we have going for us right now is speed and no-nonsense. But I could be wrong, lol. Nevertheless, I'm curious - do you believe this document is too rigid? I think it's firm, but not rigid enough that it would cause problems. You know, like we cover our bases but don't smother anything. Is it good in that right, I guess is what I'm asking, lol. If it isn't, we might as well get it ironed out now so we don't have problems down the road.
"Your uniform doesn't seem to fit. You're much too alive in it."

"You must be the change you want to see in the world" - Gandhi
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TAO
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Kilroy was here
What has "broken" this aspect of forum gameplay in the past, is having a system so rigid that it is unable to deal with a situation "outside the box". There really is no way to tell if this "covers all the bases but doesn't smother anything" until it is put into action. Granted, those play-busters are rare -- and they often are a mix of in-game and RL issues within a community (Gov, for example ... or a forum destroyer who also plays here is another possible issue). Honestly, Todd, I don't have an eloquent or definitive reply for your question. What we have here looks good. Will it stand up once put into practice? Who can tell.

Perhaps there could be a "fail-safe option" where any issue that becomes too hot to handle/too charged/too divisive for the community could be tabled by us and passed to either the forum admin or some other body (yet to be created).
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Barb
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TAO,

The idea of adding that the SOC is an agreement for conducting business between Arbiters to a document with a clause allowing us to change them, would also allow us to suspend them.

The risk of doing is is that we will be criticized for making it up as we are going along. Which is a LOL, because we have that authority and we are. If an explicit clause allows any Arbiter to call for a 2/3 to to suspend the SOC in entirety when it is deemed in the best interest of TEP, I have no objection.

Todd - as to witnesses who are not parties, IRL one has to present a witness list before presenting a case and in this instance I suggest something to the effect of:

"If any party in a matter before Conclave submits to Viceroy prior to presentation of their case a list of advocates or witnesses they wish to call, those nations may appear before Conclave subject to approval by the Viceroy and any objection by an active Arbiter followed by a Conclave vote. Threadjacking and speechifying is not allowed. Parties, advocates, and witnesses will post on topic when and only when directed to do so by Viceroy and in response to an Arbiter question."

I agree with TAO - we don't know if it will work, but it's better than no structure at all. I consider the SOC having permanent training wheels and always a dynamic document that only serves us well if it promotes efficiency and fairness.

I have a question about whether or not an issue would be on or off topic in Conclave - a kind of Chambers question. Not urgent, but I would like there to be a quiet spot for a n00b like me to ask the more experienced Arbiters about a current issue.
Barb
Arbiter Barbara Manatee
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Convicted Thief of the Crown of the Vizier

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Todd McCloud
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Planet Telox
ultharambassadorbarbara
Jun 30 2010, 02:00 PM
Todd - as to witnesses who are not parties, IRL one has to present a witness list before presenting a case and in this instance I suggest something to the effect of:

Yeah, I suppose a witness list would be much better than "WAIT! I have another person who I'd like to ask the viceroy to call to the stand!" That being said, let's add it into the SOC.

Quote:
 
"If any party in a matter before Conclave submits to Viceroy prior to presentation of their case a list of advocates or witnesses they wish to call, those nations may appear before Conclave subject to approval by the Viceroy and any objection by an active Arbiter followed by a Conclave vote.  Threadjacking and speechifying is not allowed.  Parties, advocates, and witnesses will post on topic when and only when directed to do so by Viceroy and in response to an Arbiter question."


I think I'll suggest to split it up a bit, if you don't mind:

Added to Section 6, 1:

Quote:
 
Any citizens or members may bring up accusations of offending members or citizens for the Conclave to review in the form of a post topic. These accusations must include the accused person(s) and offense(s) they are accused of committing, in addition to any witnesses or advocates each side wishes to appear before the trial.


Added to Section 6, 2:

Quote:
 
Any offenses brought to the attention of the Conclave must be determined to merit the need for a trial. The Conclave may have no more than one week to determine if a trial is needed by active Arbiter majority vote, and the acceptance of any advocates and witnesses proposed.


Added to Section 6, 5:

Quote:
 
The Viceroy is charged with guiding the direction of the trial: from the motion, to evidence provided by the accuser(s), to defense of the accused person(s), to opening the floor for questions, and suspending the trial to allow for arbiters to reach a sentence and verdict. Only those given clearance to post during the trial may do so as directed by the Viceroy and in response to a question proposed by an Arbiter.


How do those sound? Is it okay? If it works, I'll add it in.

Quote:
 
I agree with TAO - we don't know if it will work, but it's better than no structure at all.  I consider the SOC having permanent training wheels and always a dynamic document that only serves us well if it promotes efficiency and fairness.

I have a question about whether or not an issue would be on or off topic in Conclave - a kind of Chambers question.  Not urgent, but I would like there to be a quiet spot for a n00b like me to ask the more experienced Arbiters about a current issue.

Right. There's no telling what sort of things we might get into or have overlooked here until we actually put it in action. Still, only one way to find out!

Also, I personally don't think there should be structure in the closed doors part of the Conclave spot. If there's a question an arbiter has back there, he or she should feel okay to ask it. No one's going to make fun of them or anything, I don't think, so yeah. I'd really like for everyone to feel like not only are they able to talk and bring up things among each other, but that they're encouraged to do so, even if it might only be relevant to them. I don't see any problems with that, so, as they say on NSwiki... be bold, lol. But yeah, I'm totally for a sort of section where we could do that. Doesn't need to be regimented.

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"You must be the change you want to see in the world" - Gandhi
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Barb
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Sergeant Hobo 678
Todd: request you repost the modified SOC with everyone's bright ideas in it - not as modifications in red, in black and white as modified.

I don't have the authority to call for a vote on what we have so far, but I do have the power to "nudge." We can make more changes as circumstances dictate. Everyone has been incredibly reasonable and civil and thoughtful about this - so why not move ahead and see how it works?

*nudge*
Barb
Arbiter Barbara Manatee
Ulthar Ambassador to The East Pacific
Convicted Thief of the Crown of the Vizier

Keep TEP beautiful!

The practice of peace and reconciliation is one of the most vital and artistic of human actions. - Thich Nhat Hanh
Quote:
 
Todd McCloud: don't feed the trolls
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Vulshain: you don't want the disco-roller skating bots to come
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Kurogasa: honest to Quetzalcoatl
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Todd McCloud
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Planet Telox
ultharambassadorbarbara
Jul 1 2010, 04:35 AM
Todd: request you repost the modified SOC with everyone's bright ideas in it - not as modifications in red, in black and white as modified.

I don't follow - do you mean get rid of the red color and simply post it as one monochrome document, or remove the annotations I've made and instead add in the raw input from others? Just a bit confused is all, either scenario is okay with me.

Also, by nudge, do you mean motion to vote on this? Cause if so, I might second that nudge.
"Your uniform doesn't seem to fit. You're much too alive in it."

"You must be the change you want to see in the world" - Gandhi
"The worst prison would be a closed heart." - Pope John Paul II
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Kandarin
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A witness list is one of those areas where, as TAO pointed out, rigidity may shoot us in the foot. The intricacies of forum interaction mean that there will almost always be people with critical information who will be unknown at first to the person bringing forth the case. So a suggested list of people who can be approved up front would be nice - but the process will be crippled if we don't allow for bringing in more witnesses midstream.
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Barb
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Sergeant Hobo 678
Kandarin's right - particularly due to the uneven login frequency of players. Suggest we add, "Any party or Arbiter who becomes aware of a witness with relevant information as to the legality of a bill or the guilt or innocence of any party before the Conclave may petition the Viceroy during proceedings to amend the list of nations allowed to present evidence or argument. Once a vote has been taken, any such submission would be in the form of a Motion To Reconsider the matter based upon new evidence."
Barb
Arbiter Barbara Manatee
Ulthar Ambassador to The East Pacific
Convicted Thief of the Crown of the Vizier

Keep TEP beautiful!

The practice of peace and reconciliation is one of the most vital and artistic of human actions. - Thich Nhat Hanh
Quote:
 
Todd McCloud: don't feed the trolls
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Vulshain: you don't want the disco-roller skating bots to come
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TAO
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Kilroy was here
ultharambassadorbarbara
Jul 1 2010, 07:08 PM
Kandarin's right - particularly due to the uneven login frequency of players. Suggest we add, "Any party or Arbiter who becomes aware of a witness with relevant information as to the legality of a bill or the guilt or innocence of any party before the Conclave may petition the Viceroy during proceedings to amend the list of nations allowed to present evidence or argument. Once a vote has been taken, any such submission would be in the form of a Motion To Reconsider the matter based upon new evidence."

That is a flexible addition.
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Todd McCloud
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Agreed. I will add it in!
"Your uniform doesn't seem to fit. You're much too alive in it."

"You must be the change you want to see in the world" - Gandhi
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Todd McCloud
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Planet Telox
Heyall, question. Am I doing the right thing by adding the suggestions into the document without too much discussion? I mean, people are more than welcome to change things around and stuff at any time throughout any of this, I just don't want to be someone who's being an ultimate decider in what goes in and what doesn't, because this should be a group effort and it's a document written by all of us, or should be. I mean, if people are okay with it, that's cool, but I just want to make sure if people are okay with it or not okay with it. If not, no worries. *shrugs*
"Your uniform doesn't seem to fit. You're much too alive in it."

"You must be the change you want to see in the world" - Gandhi
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Kurogasa
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I like it, honestly I already posted the parts I didn't agree with
I don't want to conquer the world, I want the people to put me as their leader for themselves (or I will have to conquer it, anyways it will be mine soon).

"What is a rebel? A man who says no" -Albert Camus-

"The greatest joy a man can know is to conquer his enemies and drive them before him. To ride their horses and take away their possessions. To see the faces of those who were dear to them bedewed with tears, and to clasp their wives and daughters in his arms." -Genghis Khan-
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Allegheny
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I find this to be acceptable.. i do not have any problems with it and really nothing more to suggest.
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Barb
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I'm with Allegheny. I like what I see.

Todd, I think it's fine for you to repost the document as amended by everyone's suggestions and omitting reference to what got changed. The conversation is memorialized in this thread if anyone wants to look something up.
Barb
Arbiter Barbara Manatee
Ulthar Ambassador to The East Pacific
Convicted Thief of the Crown of the Vizier

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The practice of peace and reconciliation is one of the most vital and artistic of human actions. - Thich Nhat Hanh
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Todd McCloud
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Alright, I've amended the post. It's updated to the current version, all changes are made into one hard copy.

The document looks good to me as well. I believe we should see if others are okay with it. Good work, all, this turned out to be very constructive. Speedy, but not at the risk of sacrificing good debate. I like that.
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"You must be the change you want to see in the world" - Gandhi
"The worst prison would be a closed heart." - Pope John Paul II
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TAO
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Kilroy was here
Having only one "author" makes it easier for everyone else to see the "mistakes", Todd. It actually makes for more participation than you would think.
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Todd McCloud
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TAO
Jul 5 2010, 09:41 PM
Having only one "author" makes it easier for everyone else to see the "mistakes", Todd. It actually makes for more participation than you would think.

I just thought it would be easier for people to see what we were working on. I meant no harm in that. Since no one really objected to it initially, I thought it was okay.
"Your uniform doesn't seem to fit. You're much too alive in it."

"You must be the change you want to see in the world" - Gandhi
"The worst prison would be a closed heart." - Pope John Paul II
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Allegheny
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TAO
Jul 5 2010, 09:41 PM
Having only one "author" makes it easier for everyone else to see the "mistakes", Todd. It actually makes for more participation than you would think.

I don't understand what this means here, I was under the impression that both barb and todd worked to create a preliminary document that we have all modified in our own way with our suggestions.
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Barb
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Kinda.

Todd and I worked independently on two separate ideas, then collaborated, and I agreed that if he incorporated my best ideas, we should go with his document.
:lol:

So then everyone chimed in. There was no contention in the process: we're all on the same page. It was amazing. We adopted everyone's corrections and additions.

No dumb ideas. I am honored to be in the Conclave with such wise folks!

I say we kick this puppy down the road and declare our shop open for business. Then have margaritas.
Barb
Arbiter Barbara Manatee
Ulthar Ambassador to The East Pacific
Convicted Thief of the Crown of the Vizier

Keep TEP beautiful!

The practice of peace and reconciliation is one of the most vital and artistic of human actions. - Thich Nhat Hanh
Quote:
 
Todd McCloud: don't feed the trolls
Quote:
 
Vulshain: you don't want the disco-roller skating bots to come
Quote:
 
Kurogasa: honest to Quetzalcoatl
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Todd McCloud
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Planet Telox
ultharambassadorbarbara
Jul 5 2010, 11:34 PM
Kinda.

Todd and I worked independently on two separate ideas, then collaborated, and I agreed that if he incorporated my best ideas, we should go with his document.
:lol:

So then everyone chimed in.  There was no contention in the process: we're all on the same page.  It was amazing.  We adopted everyone's corrections and additions.

No dumb ideas.  I am honored to be in the Conclave with such wise folks!

I say we kick this puppy down the road and declare our shop open for business.  Then have margaritas.

Yeah, it was pretty fun collabing with you on that, Barb. I was amazed - when we both showed each other's documents, they were kind of built on the same premises, but a bit different. Still, I'm glad we both wrote stuff up - our ideas separate were a little incomplete, but with our powers combined, we came up with Captain Planet a pretty cool mega document!

And afterwords, things were created, processes were questioned, and no one really got into a fight or what not (as far as I know, lol). This was speedy. Speedy, not at the sacrifice of justice or being thorough, but speedy. Twas great!

I hope everyone else is okay with it as well
"Your uniform doesn't seem to fit. You're much too alive in it."

"You must be the change you want to see in the world" - Gandhi
"The worst prison would be a closed heart." - Pope John Paul II
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TAO
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Kilroy was here
Allegheny
Jul 6 2010, 02:21 AM
TAO
Jul 5 2010, 09:41 PM
Having only one "author" makes it easier for everyone else to see the "mistakes", Todd.  It actually makes for more participation than you would think.

I don't understand what this means here, I was under the impression that both barb and todd worked to create a preliminary document that we have all modified in our own way with our suggestions.

It was a good thing, Allegheny. Having only one person responsible for changes is less confusing and makes everyone else proof readers. And by re-reading the document (or parts changed) each time, there is either agreement the document is solid or there are new ideas and suggestions for making it better.

The advantage here was having two good thinkers merge their grand basic documents. A good start will usually lead to a good finish (like it has here).
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