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| [REVIEW] Magisterium Standing Orders; Review: Unanimous Consent | |
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| Topic Started: Sep 6 2010, 03:15:42 PM (1,071 Views) | |
| Barb | Sep 6 2010, 03:15:42 PM Post #1 |
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Sergeant Hobo 678
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The matter before Conclave is to determine if the Standing Orders of the Magisterium is consistent with Concordat with regard to unanimous consent. The rules governing this proceeding may be found in Concordat and in the Standing Orders of Conclave. Order of the Proceeding 1. Housekeeping. Viceroy has accepted the recusal of Arbiter Allegheny pursuant to the Standing Orders of the Conclave which satisfies the Concordat's requirement that there be an odd number of Arbiters. All Arbiters including Allegheny and Nominee Smigsachenweiz are advised that it is considered improper and prejudicial to comment on how you might vote on any matter before Conclave. All parties are advised that this thread is THE place to discuss the outcome of this matter: attempting to influence the outcome by any other means is considered disruptive to the proceeding. 2. Motion to Dismiss. Arbiters are reminded that they may at any time raise a Motion to Dismiss and the state the reason for the Motion, at which time the proceeding shall be suspended for consideration of the Motion by ARBITERS ONLY. 3. Defense to defeat the Resolution. The Provost, as the representative of Magisterium per Concordat, is invited to response to the Resolution. Provost may appoint one other citizen to assist in posting the initial defense, simply by naming them here. They may also post in the initial defense. Execpt for an Arbiter Motion to Dismiss, no other participant shall post until the Provost has posted the defense. If a defense is not posted within 72 hours of this post, defense shall be deemed waived and Conclave will proceed to debate by ARBITERS ONLY. 4. Discussion. If a defense is posted, Viceroy will declare the floor of the Conclave open to ALL MAGISTERS for 48 hours and subsequently to ALL CITIZENS for an additional 48 hours. Arbiters may join the discussion, ask questions, or simply listen as they see fit during this four day period. 5. Debate. At the end of discussion, this thread shall be limited to posts by ARBITERS ONLY for debate to last no longer than 72 hours. A Motion to end debate may be submitted and seconded at any time during debate and a majority of Arbiters voting AYE shall have ended debate. 6. Vote. Once the Viceroy has called the vote, voting shall proceed for four days or until every Arbiter has voted, whichever comes first. Viceroy shall declare the outcome and this thread shall be locked. 7. Obligatory Plea for Good Conduct. Please stay on topic: this is a matter of law. It is not personal. Anyone who posts ASCII, emoticons, personal attacks, or otherwise disrupts this proceeding may have their post deleted or moved to Admin for consideration of additional consequences. The subheading of this thread shall list in ALL CAPS the parties allowed to post at a given time. The Standing Orders enacted by the Magisterium are:
THE RESOLUTION BEFORE CONCLAVE: WHEREAS, Standing Orders of the Magisterium state:
AND Concordat declares the Magisterium votes in Sections 3, 4, 6, 8, 9 ,10, and 11 of Article B; AND “Vote” is a formal expression of preference and “to vote” is to create a means by which a preference is known; AND Section IV/a of the Standing Orders of the Magisterium defines Magister failure to be present in Magisterium or object as voting FOR; AND Unanimous consent obscures the record of Magisters not voting by providing a procedure which prevents citizens from obtaining a measure of elected government official activity, which is of vital interest to the citizens who elect them, THEREFORE it is resolved by Conclave that: Section IV/a of the Standing Orders of Magisterium violates Concordat. Section IV/a of the Standing Orders of the Magisterium is nullified. Magisterium is prohibited from using unanimous consent to determine the voting record of the Magisterium. All votes pursuant to Concordat shall not consider the silence or inactivity of a voter as either a vote FOR or AGAINST. A majority AYE vote of Arbiters approves this resolution and a majority NAY vote dismisses it. |
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Barb Arbiter Barbara Manatee Ulthar Ambassador to The East Pacific Convicted Thief of the Crown of the Vizier Keep TEP beautiful! The practice of peace and reconciliation is one of the most vital and artistic of human actions. - Thich Nhat Hanh
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| Free Pacific States | Sep 6 2010, 03:39:16 PM Post #2 |
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Number One Drone
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The Provost waives the right to defense. |
| The Federated Alliance of Free Pacific States | Lyon Republic | Republic of Xiopothos | East Pacific Treaty Organization | |
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| Barb | Sep 6 2010, 03:50:25 PM Post #3 |
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Sergeant Hobo 678
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Well that was fast. As the representative of Magisterium per Concordat, Provost has waived the Magisterium's defense. So be it. There being no defense to weigh and discuss, Conclave therefore only has a Resolution for Arbiters to debate. Viceroy now calls for consideration of the Resolution by ARBITERS ONLY for the next 72 hours, during which time any Arbiter may move for the vote. That motion seconded, Viceroy shall ask the Conclave to accept the motion to vote by posting AYE (let's vote already) or NAY (I still have some debate left in me). Majority of Arbiter votes shall be acknowledged by Viceroy and the resolution restated. The vote shall proceed for 48 hours or until every Arbiter has voted, which ever comes first. |
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Barb Arbiter Barbara Manatee Ulthar Ambassador to The East Pacific Convicted Thief of the Crown of the Vizier Keep TEP beautiful! The practice of peace and reconciliation is one of the most vital and artistic of human actions. - Thich Nhat Hanh
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| Kandarin | Sep 6 2010, 09:43:26 PM Post #4 |
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Ferret princess
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AYE. The contradiction here is quite apparent. |
"Torpored Caitiff Antediluvian"
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| Chancellor Shaw | Sep 7 2010, 01:08:36 AM Post #5 |
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Bill Stickers is Innocent
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I am somewhat confused, not by the subject matter, but by Kandarin's voicing a vote. I am not yet perfectly familiar with Conclave protocol, has the stage of voting been established? |
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Thank you for your time Chancellor Shaw, of the Free Land of Moafin Moafin Wiki: under construction Moafin Q&A
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| Der Fuhrer Dyszel | Sep 7 2010, 01:19:09 AM Post #6 |
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Cool like Snakes
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Kandarin is an Arbiter. *runs and hides from Barb* I am sorry for the introjection. You may delete this post. ![]() |
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Official Approval by Terasu MASTER OF PSYCHOSODOMY You can't ignore my girth. Terasu: "Well done DFD you imploded the universe" :lol: ![]()
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| Chancellor Shaw | Sep 7 2010, 01:57:31 AM Post #7 |
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Bill Stickers is Innocent
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With no disrespect, I realize how my previous comment could be taken to mean that I did not think Kandarin's post belongs here, however I realize that Kand is an Arbiter. I was merely wondering if we had reached the stage where a vote is requested, or if we are still in the 72 hours of "consideration of the Resolution". |
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Thank you for your time Chancellor Shaw, of the Free Land of Moafin Moafin Wiki: under construction Moafin Q&A
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| Kurogasa | Sep 7 2010, 05:15:38 AM Post #8 |
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Viceroy
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Shaw is correct, we haven't reached the voting state yet, I guess Kand could move for a vote if he wants to vote right now, but until then his statement is nothing more than an opinion... although
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I don't want to conquer the world, I want the people to put me as their leader for themselves (or I will have to conquer it, anyways it will be mine soon). "What is a rebel? A man who says no" -Albert Camus- "The greatest joy a man can know is to conquer his enemies and drive them before him. To ride their horses and take away their possessions. To see the faces of those who were dear to them bedewed with tears, and to clasp their wives and daughters in his arms." -Genghis Khan- | |
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| Barb | Sep 7 2010, 02:07:22 PM Post #9 |
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Sergeant Hobo 678
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No need to be so formal kids! I simply threw the resolution open for Arbiter discussion and Arbiter Kandarin said:
I know it looks like a vote, but it's in the context of Conclave debate, so I think we should cut Kandarin some slack on semantics. DFD was not invited but not disruptive either. I will spank her, I mean thank her, later. Mebbe both. My warning "All Arbiters including Allegheny and Nominee Smigsachenweiz are advised that it is considered improper and prejudicial to comment on how you might vote on any matter before Conclave" ceases to be relevant to us right now in this thread because we are here to be judicial and listen to each other's opinions. It remains relevant outside of this thread. Debate means PLEASE DO be opinionated - just here and now. Not before or elsewhere. My opinion is that unanimous consent is inconsistent with Concordat as well because not voting isn't voting AYE or NAY. The term "majority" in Concordat is meaningless if one or two voters can claim that silence means AYE. Inactivity is something voters are entitled to know and to judge government officials by - as well as by what we did and did not vote for. Conclave has compassion for RL interfering with our ability to be active: we wrote that into our standing orders. They do not say Conclave can count your vote as AYE if you're not here for a period of time or fail to vote. SOC require that you recuse yourself if you cannot dedicate the time required to be active here, do not intend to vote due to conflict of interest, or we have that "even number of Arbiters" problem that Concordat forbids. Once every Arbiter has voiced their opinion on the resolution, I welcome a motion to vote. 72 hours isn't required, it's just the maximum debate time. |
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Barb Arbiter Barbara Manatee Ulthar Ambassador to The East Pacific Convicted Thief of the Crown of the Vizier Keep TEP beautiful! The practice of peace and reconciliation is one of the most vital and artistic of human actions. - Thich Nhat Hanh
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| Todd McCloud | Sep 7 2010, 03:30:07 PM Post #10 |
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Planet Telox
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Barb - May we make general comments about the document, or is this discussion just supposed to be about the unanimous consent part? Just curious is all. Thanks!
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"Your uniform doesn't seem to fit. You're much too alive in it." "You must be the change you want to see in the world" - Gandhi "The worst prison would be a closed heart." - Pope John Paul II Vekaiyu's Wiki Page | Ikrisia Levinile's Wiki Page | Listonia's Wiki Page | |
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| Barb | Sep 7 2010, 06:22:27 PM Post #11 |
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Sergeant Hobo 678
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Anything relevant to the resolution goes. FYI, the WHEREAS section was designed to lay out a case for passing the resolution. It was offered so that the Magisterium had something to respond to. It would have been unfair to say "oh no you don't" without suggesting reasons why. If there had been defense and discussion, I planned to modify the WHEREAS to include any salient points made and exclude any that were successfully refuted and restate the WHEREAS prior to debate. I wrote it with intentionally spare verbiage: it doesn't include every reason why I think we should strike down unanimous consent, just what I thought was sufficient grounds. There being no defense, I had nothing new to add or remove. If the resolution is passed, it will be submitted to Magisterium simply as: It is resolved by Conclave that: Section IV/a of the Standing Orders of Magisterium violates Concordat. Section IV/a of the Standing Orders of the Magisterium is nullified. Magisterium is prohibited from using unanimous consent to determine the voting record of the Magisterium. All votes pursuant to Concordat shall not consider the silence or inactivity of a voter as either a vote FOR or AGAINST. You can vote for or against that resolution for any one of the the reasons I stated or for your own. If you have your own, please let the rest of us know what they are. All statements by Arbiters in this debate contribute to the collective consideration of Conclave. In SCOTUS (Supreme Court of the United States), a justice may agree with the court but state that they do so for reasons that vary with the majority opinion. As Conclave doesn't write majority of opinions that create case law in the same way, I consider the debate phase the place where you can raise any issue regarding the matter and that Conclave so noted your opinion before voting. This is our first time as a team reviewing a matter interpreting Concordat, and yeah we do take that seriously. Debate is when we should all just say what we think about what the Concordat means by vote and if unanimous consent is consistent with that or conflicts with it - and why. Anyone who reads this thread in the future should be able to see why it is we each voted for or against the resolution. The reasons don't have to be the same. We can agree to disagree. Then we all vote and the outcome is what it is. |
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Barb Arbiter Barbara Manatee Ulthar Ambassador to The East Pacific Convicted Thief of the Crown of the Vizier Keep TEP beautiful! The practice of peace and reconciliation is one of the most vital and artistic of human actions. - Thich Nhat Hanh
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| Todd McCloud | Sep 7 2010, 07:39:03 PM Post #12 |
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Planet Telox
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Okay Barb, thank you for the clarification. There are a few other things I have questions about, mostly small things regarding interpretation of this document. I'll save that for later, though, because this is about unanimous consent. I think I know the motivation behind IV.a. in their standing orders: time. They want things to move fast so that they don't get bogged down and they can sort of send it to the delegate without much problem. They don't want to have to wait on inactive Magisters. I can understand that notion. But one thing is very certain: we cannot sacrifice democracy for expedience. To me this violates the Concordat. Why? Well, according to article B, Section 4 of the Concordat:
The law states that a majority vote is required to pass laws. There are no further stipulations regarding this (Well, there are for special cases such as removing an arbiter via 3/4 vote, for example), but aside from that, there are no other mentions. Let's just say, for exemplary purposes, that we have 10 arbiters and there's some kind of bill being debated on. The current setup requires essentially just one person to call for a unanimous consent and get the bill passed. Let's say the provost in this fictional Magisterium calls for a UC ruling. He/she gives the region 48 hours to object and, if no one objects, it passes on. So one person can pass a law on, two if the person who calls for UC is not the provost, in just two days. Is one or two people in a Magisterium of ten a majority? Nope. To me, this is where the UC idea breaks down. No matter how you slice it, unless a majority of the Magisterium agrees to it, it's not a majority. Now, I'd like to think if a Magister sees a red flag, he or she will object to the motion and there will be no problems. But the very procedure is wrong, regardless if a Magister blows a whistle or not. It undermines a majority vote. This becomes especially dangerous based on how motion is interpreted. Does motion include procedures on how to remove arbiters, delegates, etc? My God, I hope not. Do I think the Magisterium had intended to do this? Nope, I really don't. I think it was simply motivated by time. It's my suggestion that the Magisterium uphold the law of majority, and if they're having problems getting a majority to vote on things due to inactivity, they will remove the inactives. |
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"Your uniform doesn't seem to fit. You're much too alive in it." "You must be the change you want to see in the world" - Gandhi "The worst prison would be a closed heart." - Pope John Paul II Vekaiyu's Wiki Page | Ikrisia Levinile's Wiki Page | Listonia's Wiki Page | |
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| Barb | Sep 7 2010, 08:00:56 PM Post #13 |
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Sergeant Hobo 678
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Thanks, Todd. Shaw? Kurogasa? Anything to add or concerns to express? |
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Barb Arbiter Barbara Manatee Ulthar Ambassador to The East Pacific Convicted Thief of the Crown of the Vizier Keep TEP beautiful! The practice of peace and reconciliation is one of the most vital and artistic of human actions. - Thich Nhat Hanh
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| Chancellor Shaw | Sep 7 2010, 08:02:52 PM Post #14 |
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Bill Stickers is Innocent
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I can also see, if UC is allowed, it being very open to abuse and corruption. Suppose there is an uncommonly low amount of Magisters for a period. Lets say five Magisters have been elected. If there were ever a period in which it is widely known that three of those five Magisters would be unavailable for such a short time period as two days, which is not uncommon, the remaining two would be able to pass legislation that would have otherwise been denied. This may be a hypothetical situation, but the abusive powers that come with UC are, in my opinion, staggering. The only time two people can be seen as a majority is in a party of three. As good as the intent is, this is not an acceptable way of saving time. |
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Thank you for your time Chancellor Shaw, of the Free Land of Moafin Moafin Wiki: under construction Moafin Q&A
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| Barb | Sep 7 2010, 10:40:36 PM Post #15 |
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Sergeant Hobo 678
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I concur. Kurogasa, you have the last word. Then somebody please move for the vote. |
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Barb Arbiter Barbara Manatee Ulthar Ambassador to The East Pacific Convicted Thief of the Crown of the Vizier Keep TEP beautiful! The practice of peace and reconciliation is one of the most vital and artistic of human actions. - Thich Nhat Hanh
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| Kurogasa | Sep 8 2010, 04:06:03 AM Post #16 |
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Viceroy
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I can see where you guys are going with this, and I have to say I agree... At first I was concerned of how one inactive magister can stop a law from passing, but when I read the section III everything changed, if there's inactivity and the magisterium needs unanimous consent, then the provost can hold a roll call to point it out and then remove him...it isn't pretty, but it is the way... there's something I don't know about the majority vote, though... If there are 7 magisters, 3 vote aye, 2 nay and 2 abstain does the law pass by majority or are the "Abstain" votes counted as Nays? |
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I don't want to conquer the world, I want the people to put me as their leader for themselves (or I will have to conquer it, anyways it will be mine soon). "What is a rebel? A man who says no" -Albert Camus- "The greatest joy a man can know is to conquer his enemies and drive them before him. To ride their horses and take away their possessions. To see the faces of those who were dear to them bedewed with tears, and to clasp their wives and daughters in his arms." -Genghis Khan- | |
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| Barb | Sep 8 2010, 10:40:13 AM Post #17 |
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Sergeant Hobo 678
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All references to a majority, 2/3, or 3/4 majority in Concordat state "of the Magisterium" and not of those Magisters with a pulse, those who bother to show up, those wearing funny hats, or of those who vote. I am curious if Conclave agrees if the new definition of majority in the new standing orders, which is "of those voting" is consistent with Concordat. Kurogasa asks an excellent question and when we put this matter to rest, I will raise it in Conclave. The current question before Conclave is the matter of unanimous consent. All Arbiters have spoken in debate. Voting will begin tomorrow automatically if we have more to discuss or any Arbiter may move and second to END DEBATE. We to then vote AYE or NAY to END DEBATE. I will restate the Resolution, then Conclave will vote accept of dismiss it. |
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Barb Arbiter Barbara Manatee Ulthar Ambassador to The East Pacific Convicted Thief of the Crown of the Vizier Keep TEP beautiful! The practice of peace and reconciliation is one of the most vital and artistic of human actions. - Thich Nhat Hanh
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| Chancellor Shaw | Sep 8 2010, 12:30:43 PM Post #18 |
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Bill Stickers is Innocent
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For the record, I also have concerns about the repeated clause "of those voting", although I realize this is not the place to discuss that. I'm fine with waiting until tomorrow, but in the spirit of expediency to moving towards a vote I would like to motion to END DEBATE. |
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Thank you for your time Chancellor Shaw, of the Free Land of Moafin Moafin Wiki: under construction Moafin Q&A
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| Barb | Sep 8 2010, 12:53:45 PM Post #19 |
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Sergeant Hobo 678
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I ask a fellow Arbiter to second the motion to end debate. |
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Barb Arbiter Barbara Manatee Ulthar Ambassador to The East Pacific Convicted Thief of the Crown of the Vizier Keep TEP beautiful! The practice of peace and reconciliation is one of the most vital and artistic of human actions. - Thich Nhat Hanh
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| Todd McCloud | Sep 8 2010, 02:26:27 PM Post #20 |
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Planet Telox
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Motion seconded |
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"Your uniform doesn't seem to fit. You're much too alive in it." "You must be the change you want to see in the world" - Gandhi "The worst prison would be a closed heart." - Pope John Paul II Vekaiyu's Wiki Page | Ikrisia Levinile's Wiki Page | Listonia's Wiki Page | |
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| Barb | Sep 8 2010, 02:36:12 PM Post #21 |
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Sergeant Hobo 678
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Thank you. I know it may seem a bit formal and silly to have procedural votes like this, but a MOTION TO END DEBATE is way to say, OK, enough talking about it, I'm ready to vote - or to say, no wait, I want to use the time remaining to think it over or talk some more. This is not a vote on the resolution. This is a vote to end debate. An AYE vote ENDS debate on the resolution and a NAY vote extends debate to the full 72 hours. Barb votes AYE. |
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Barb Arbiter Barbara Manatee Ulthar Ambassador to The East Pacific Convicted Thief of the Crown of the Vizier Keep TEP beautiful! The practice of peace and reconciliation is one of the most vital and artistic of human actions. - Thich Nhat Hanh
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| Todd McCloud | Sep 8 2010, 02:49:16 PM Post #22 |
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Planet Telox
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Todd votes AYE |
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"Your uniform doesn't seem to fit. You're much too alive in it." "You must be the change you want to see in the world" - Gandhi "The worst prison would be a closed heart." - Pope John Paul II Vekaiyu's Wiki Page | Ikrisia Levinile's Wiki Page | Listonia's Wiki Page | |
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| Chancellor Shaw | Sep 8 2010, 02:51:51 PM Post #23 |
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Bill Stickers is Innocent
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Shaw votes AYE |
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Thank you for your time Chancellor Shaw, of the Free Land of Moafin Moafin Wiki: under construction Moafin Q&A
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| Kurogasa | Sep 8 2010, 05:32:41 PM Post #24 |
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Viceroy
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Kurogasa votes AYE. |
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I don't want to conquer the world, I want the people to put me as their leader for themselves (or I will have to conquer it, anyways it will be mine soon). "What is a rebel? A man who says no" -Albert Camus- "The greatest joy a man can know is to conquer his enemies and drive them before him. To ride their horses and take away their possessions. To see the faces of those who were dear to them bedewed with tears, and to clasp their wives and daughters in his arms." -Genghis Khan- | |
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| Barb | Sep 9 2010, 10:13:23 AM Post #25 |
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Sergeant Hobo 678
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4 Arbiters voted AYE and 1 did not vote, but we're coming up on 72 hours anyhow and this is a procedural vote, not the matter at hand. The AYES have it. The Vote is called, debate has ended. The Resolution Section IV/a of the Standing Orders of Magisterium violates Concordat. Section IV/a of the Standing Orders of the Magisterium is nullified. Magisterium is prohibited from using unanimous consent to determine the voting record of the Magisterium. All votes pursuant to Concordat shall not consider the silence or inactivity of a voter as either a vote FOR or AGAINST. An AYE vote approves the resolution, a NAY vote dismisses it. Conlave shall vote for four days or until all Arbiters have voted, which ever comes first. |
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Barb Arbiter Barbara Manatee Ulthar Ambassador to The East Pacific Convicted Thief of the Crown of the Vizier Keep TEP beautiful! The practice of peace and reconciliation is one of the most vital and artistic of human actions. - Thich Nhat Hanh
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| Todd McCloud | Sep 9 2010, 12:20:22 PM Post #26 |
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Planet Telox
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Todd votes AYE |
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"Your uniform doesn't seem to fit. You're much too alive in it." "You must be the change you want to see in the world" - Gandhi "The worst prison would be a closed heart." - Pope John Paul II Vekaiyu's Wiki Page | Ikrisia Levinile's Wiki Page | Listonia's Wiki Page | |
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| Chancellor Shaw | Sep 9 2010, 12:49:25 PM Post #27 |
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Bill Stickers is Innocent
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Shaw votes AYE |
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Thank you for your time Chancellor Shaw, of the Free Land of Moafin Moafin Wiki: under construction Moafin Q&A
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| Kandarin | Sep 9 2010, 11:06:09 PM Post #28 |
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Ferret princess
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Kandarin votes AYE. |
"Torpored Caitiff Antediluvian"
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| Kurogasa | Sep 9 2010, 11:32:07 PM Post #29 |
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Viceroy
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Kurogasa votes AYE. |
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I don't want to conquer the world, I want the people to put me as their leader for themselves (or I will have to conquer it, anyways it will be mine soon). "What is a rebel? A man who says no" -Albert Camus- "The greatest joy a man can know is to conquer his enemies and drive them before him. To ride their horses and take away their possessions. To see the faces of those who were dear to them bedewed with tears, and to clasp their wives and daughters in his arms." -Genghis Khan- | |
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| Barb | Sep 10 2010, 04:13:11 PM Post #30 |
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Sergeant Hobo 678
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Barb votes AYE. The resolution is accepted by Conclave and will be reported to Magisterium. |
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Barb Arbiter Barbara Manatee Ulthar Ambassador to The East Pacific Convicted Thief of the Crown of the Vizier Keep TEP beautiful! The practice of peace and reconciliation is one of the most vital and artistic of human actions. - Thich Nhat Hanh
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2:11 PM Jul 11