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[REVIEW] Magisterium Standing Orders; Review: Majority Vote
Topic Started: Sep 11 2010, 06:27:37 PM (1,433 Views)
Barb
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Sergeant Hobo 678
The matter before Conclave is to determine if the Standing Orders of the Magisterium is consistent with Concordat with regard to its definition of a majority vote in Magisterium.

The rules governing this proceeding may be found in Concordat and in the Standing Orders of Conclave.

Order of the Proceeding

1. Housekeeping. Viceroy has accepted the recusal of Arbiter Allegheny pursuant to the Standing Orders of the Conclave which satisfies the Concordat's requirement that there be an odd number of Arbiters. All Arbiters are advised that it is considered improper and prejudicial to comment on how you might vote on any matter before Conclave prior to Arbiter debate. All parties are advised that this thread is THE place to discuss the outcome of this matter: attempting to influence the outcome by any other means is considered disruptive to the proceeding.

2. Motion to Dismiss. Arbiters are advised that they may at any time raise a Motion to Dismiss and the state the reason for the Motion, at which time the proceeding shall be suspended for consideration of the Motion by ARBITERS ONLY.

3. Defense to defeat the Resolution. The Provost, as the representative of Magisterium per Concordat, shall have the first response to the Resolution. Provost may appoint one other citizen to assist in posting the initial defense. No other participant shall post until the Provost has posted the defense. If a defense is not posted within 72 hours of this post, defense shall be deemed waived and Conclave will proceed to debate by ARBITERS ONLY.

4. Discussion. If a defense is posted, Viceroy shall then declare the floor of the Conclave open to ALL MAGISTERS for 48 hours and subsequently to ALL CITIZENS for an additional 48 hours. Arbiters may join the discussion or simply listen as they see fit during this four day period.

5. Debate. At the end discussion, this thread shall be limited to posts by ARBITERS ONLY for debate of 72 hours. A Motion to extend debate for an additional 48 hours shall be granted by Viceroy if seconded: no procedural vote is required to extend debate. A Motion to end debate may be submitted and seconded at any time during debate and a majority of Arbiters voting AYE shall have called the vote.

6. Vote. Voting shall proceed for four days or until every Arbiter has voted, whichever comes first. Viceroy shall declare the outcome and this thread shall be locked.

7. Obligatory Plea for Good Conduct. Please stay on topic: this is a matter of law. It is not personal. Anyone who posts ASCII, emoticons, personal attacks, or otherwise disrupts this proceeding may have their post deleted or moved to Admin for consideration of additional consequences the offense.


The Standing Orders enacted by the Magisterium are:
Quote:
 
SECTION I. PROVOST.
a) Election of the Provost -
(1) The Magisterium shall immediately elect a Provost whenever the position is vacant.
(2) The Magisters shall elect the Provost in a two part election, wherein forty-eight hours are allowed for nominations, and seventy-two hours allowed for voting upon a ballot that shall consist of any individual receiving a nomination.
(3) Any Magister may be elected Provost but no person shall be Provost that does not desire the position.

b) Provost Pro Tempore -
(1) The Provost shall appoint a Provost Pro Tempore to assist the Provost.
(2) The Provost Pro Tempore shall temporarily assume the responsibilities of Provost at any time when the Provost requests it, at any time when the Provost is absent from the forums for a period exceeding seventy-two hours, or at any time when the position of Provost is vacant.
(3) The Provost may remove the Provost Pro Tempore at any time.

c) Removal -
(1) Whenever a Magister motions for the removal of the Provost and whenever another Magister seconds that motion, the Provost Pro Tempore shall officiate a seventy-two hour vote, and if a majority of those voting vote in favor of the motion, the Provost shall be removed.
(2) Whenever a Magister motions for the removal of the Provost Pro Tempore and whenever another Magister seconds that motion, the Provost shall officiate a seventy-two hour vote, and if a majority of those voting vote in favor of the motion, the Provost Pro Tempore shall be removed.

d) Dean -
(1) The Provost shall determine, at the start of each session of the Magisterium, how many terms each Magister has served, and shall make a list of the Magisters, with the Magisters listed according to number of terms served.
(2) The Magister that is highest on that list shall be the Dean of the Magisterium, except if that Magister has been absent from the forums for a period exceeding seventy-two hours, in which case the highest Magister on the list that has been present on the forums in the last seventy-two hours shall be Dean.
(3) Whenever the Provost and Provost Pro Tempore are both inactive for a period exceeding seventy-two hours, or whenever there is no Provost or Provost Pro Tempore, the Dean shall temporarily assume the office of Provost.

SECTION II. LEGISLATION.

a) Any Magister may propose a bill, resolution, or amendment to the Concordat, and that bill, resolution, or amendment to the Concordat shall be debated immediately following its proposal.

b) The Delegate may at any time nominate an executive or judicial official and the Magisterium shall debate that nomination like regular legislation.

c) The Magisterium shall debate any legislation until a Magister motions to vote on the legislation and another Magister seconds that motion.

d) A Magister may motion to amend any legislation at any time during debate and if that motion receives a second, the Magisterium shall vote on the motion for forty-eight hours, and if the motion receives majority support, the legislation shall stand amended as motioned, except if the author(s) of the legislation accept the amendment upon its proposal, in which case the legislation shall be amended as motioned without a vote.

e) The Magisterium shall vote on any legislation for a period of time that shall exceed seventy-two hours but not exceed ninety-six hours and that legislation shall pass if a majority of those voting vote in favor of the legislation.

f) Subsection (d) notwithstanding, the Magisterium shall pass a proposed amendment to the Concordat only if two-thirds of those voting vote in favor of the amendment, and the Provost shall submit any proposed amendment to the Conclave immediately following its passage by the Magisterium.

g) The Provost shall submit to the Delegate, within twenty-four hours of its passage, any legislation that passes the Magisterium, and the Delegate shall have ten days after that submission to consider that legislation, and if the Delegate does not veto that legislation or signals his or her support for that legislation during that period, the legislation shall be enacted into law, but if the Delegate does veto that legislation, then the Provost shall officiate a seventy-two hour vote to overturn the veto, and if three-fourths of those Magisters voting vote in favor of overturning the veto, the legislation shall become law.

h) Subsection (f) notwithstanding, the assent of the Delegate shall not be required if the legislation is a proposed amendment to the Concordat, or if the legislation is a nomination, or if the legislation is a resolution that only expresses the opinion of the Magisterium.

SECTION III. INACTIVITY AND REMOVAL.

a) The Provost shall hold a roll call at any time when the Provost suspects that any number of Magisters are inactive, and if any Magister does not sign in during a period to exceed seventy-two hours but not to exceed ninety-six hours, the Provost shall investigate the activity of that Magister.

b) Whenever a Magister motions for the removal of a Magister and whenever another Magister seconds that motion, the Provost shall officiate a seventy-two hour vote, and if two-thirds of the Magisterium votes in favor of the motion, the Magister shall be removed from office.

SECTION IV. SUSPENSION, UNANIMOUS CONSENT, AND CLOSED SESSION.

a) Whenever a Magister motions for unanimous consent on either a motion or legislation, the Provost shall allow forty-eight hours for objections, and if no Magister objects during that time, the motion or legislation shall pass with the full support of the Magisterium.

b) Whenever a Magister motions for the suspension of the rules and whenever another Magister seconds that motion, the Provost shall officiate a forty-eight hour vote, and if a majority of those voting vote in favor of the motion, the rules shall be suspended in the manner stated in the motion.

c) Whenever a Magister motions for a matter to be debated in closed session and whenever another Magister seconds that motion, the Provost shall officiate a forty-eight hour vote, and if a majority of those voting vote in favor of the motion, the Magisterium shall consider that matter in closed session.

SECTION V. AMENDMENT.

Whenever a Magister motions to amend the rules and whenever another Magister seconds that motion, the Provost shall officiate a seventy-two hour vote, and if a majority of those voting vote in favor of the motion, the rules shall be amended in the manner stated in the motion.



THE RESOLUTION BEFORE CONCLAVE IS:

WHEREAS,

Standing Orders of the Magisterium state in Sections I/c, II/d, II/e, and II/f that a majority or super-majority of 2/3 or 3/4 of the Magisterium required by Concordat is a majority or super-majority "of those voting" and not of the Magisterium;

AND

Concordat explicitly declares that the Magisterium, not any subset of Magisters, shall vote by a majority, 2/3 majority or 3/4 majority in Sections 3, 4, 6, 8, 9, 10, and 11 of Article B;

AND

the Magisterium has a means to remove inactive Magisters pursuant to Concordat Article B, Section 11;

AND

it is in the best interest of the citizens of The East Pacific to restrain a minority of Magisters from enacting laws or taking legal action without the explicit consent of the elected Magisterium as a legislative body;

THEREFORE it is resolved that:

"The Magisterium" in Concordat means all elected Magisters in office in The East Pacific.

The phrase "of those voting" in the Standing Orders of Magisterium is nullified. Magisterium is prohibited from using "of those voting" to determine a majority or super-majority in the voting record of the Magisterium.


A majority of Arbiter AYE vote approves this resolution and a majority NAY vote dismisses it.
Barb
Arbiter Barbara Manatee
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Thank you very much for the invitation, Mister Viceroy, and thank you for listening, Arbiters.

This Resolution alleges that the Standing Orders violate the Concordat based on the argument that the Concordat explicitly requires majority support for a law to pass.* I do not agree with this interpretation, however, and I actually argue that the concordat explicitly requires only the support of a majority of those Magisters that chose to vote.

The writing of the Concordat itself indicates that the authors of the Concordat did not intend to require a majority of Magisters to support a law for it to pass. The Concordat states that the Magisterium shall pass laws by majority vote not majority consent. If the latter term were used, then this resolution would be correct, as the Concordat would be requiring a majority of Magisters to support a law for it to pass. But the former term is used instead, signifying that the majority of those voting must support a law for it to pass, not the majority of the Magisterium itself. To put this another way, let me throw back to grammatical English. The term "majority" is not describing "Magisterium." The Concordat does not state "the majority of the Magisterium must approve of a law for it to pass." Rather, the term "majority" is describing "vote," indicating that the decision shall be made by the majority of votes, not necessarily by the majority of Magisters. The Concordat clearly states, as such, that the Magisterium ought to pass laws based on the decisions of those that chose to vote.

The authors of the Concordat wrote the Concordat in this manner for good reason: to prevent a complete shutdown of the chamber. The authors of the Concordat recognized the threat of an inactive Magisterium, recognized that not everyone might be able to vote regularly, and recognized that allowing easy removal of inactive Magisters would allow easy removal of oppositional Magisters. To ensure a free Magisterium while also preventing complete Magisterial activity, the authors thus wrote that decisions shall be made by majority "vote," not by majority "consent," allowing a majority of those that show up to make a decision. So, not only does the Concordat explicitly state that decisions ought to be made by those voting, but realistically speaking, the authors of the Concordat must have desired such, because it'd have been irrational of them to ignore the possibility of a majority of Magisters becoming inactive.

The Conclave itself supported my argument here in its most recent decision, wherein it held that the Magisterium "shall not consider the silence of inactivity of a voter as either a vote FOR or AGAINST." The Conclave based this argument on the fact that the Concordat required a Magister to vote for that Magister to effect the outcome of legislation. But if the Conclave passes this resolution, the silence or inactivity of a Magister shall effectively be automatically considered a vote AGAINST, regardless of the actual opinion of the Magister.

The Concordat does not explicitly require majority Magisterial support for a law for it to pass, but rather, explicitly requires the support of a majority of voting Magisters. The Concordat makes that clear itself, through its placement of "majority" before "vote" instead of "Magisterium," and the Conclave reinforced this fact in its most recent ruling on the Standing Orders of the Magisterium.

Thank you very much for your time, ladies and gentlemen, I yield the floor.


*Please note that I recognize this resolution also pertains to situations in which the Concordat requires a 2/3 vote or 3/4 vote. But to save space, I will only talk about situations where the Concordat requires a majority, with the understanding that these situations do not differ (except numerically) from situations in which a super-majority is required.
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Barb
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The defense is presented. Thanks, FPS. Viceroy now calls for 48 hours of discussion by Arbiters and Magisters only.

I'll throw out the first question: does the current definition "of those voting" in Magisterium allow a single active Arbiter to remove from office the Delegate by accusing them of high crime or absence and then voting them off the island?
Barb
Arbiter Barbara Manatee
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Actually, no. A Magister must second a motion to vote for a vote to occur on any matter. So, if there's only one Magister, then no vote can occur, period.

Can two Magisters do it? Yes. But, then, two Magisters could already do it, because there is no minimum assembly size. And let me oppose the opposition question: if a majority of Magisters are inactive, can the Magisterium do anything to check the Conclave or Delegate, or is it simply doomed to be useless?
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Barb
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Thanks for your response. I asked the question because in the Magisterium Standing Orders discussion thread, you said:
Quote:
 
It only requires a 2/3 vote, not the support of 2/3 of the Magisterium, so theoretically, if only one Magister is active, s/he alone could vote to remove the person, since s/he would be 2/3 of the voting Magisters.


Which is hard for me to understand in light of what you just posted.

Seconding a motion isn't Concordat, it's just a procedural thing from Roberts Rules of Order that Magisterium may or may not choose to honor. As you previously posted, a single active Magister could ignore it. In Conclave votes aren't triggered necessarily by any motion or second. Conclave set time limits which trigger the end of debate and start voting unless Arbiters agree to end the debate earlier.

You pose the question:

"If a majority of Magisters are inactive, can the Magisterium do anything to check the Conclave or Delegate, or is it simply doomed to be useless?"

Which I is a good question. I think the answer depends.

If a 3/4 majority of Magisterium is required to remove a Magister for absence or high crime and 2/3 majority of Magisterium is required to remove a Delegate or Arbiter = YES, it is useless. Unless you remove inactive Magisters. Then the answer would be NO, Magisterium retains all of its powers per Concordat. If they resign, CTE, or move out of the region, they surrender their role in government. You don't have to vote to exclude a non-Magister from a Magisterium majority. That you do every time you vote: you don't count your YES votes against all citizens or players, just Magisters.

The citizens elected a team of legislators whom they trust to be active for three months and if they violate that trust, then the legislative branch of our government theoretically grinds to a halt. The last Magisterium more or less did grind to a halt towards the end and it took over a month for an Arbiter nominee to get elected. They kicked that can down the road to your Magisterium rather than deal with it.

Please note that Conclave and Delegate didn't interfere - because they can't. They just continued to uphold their duties under Concordat. They didn't run amok either, because they also check and balance each other.

The only body empowered to remove an Magister for absence is Magisterium. So if it ceases to police it's own Magisters for absence, then it ceases to have that power anywhere and everywhere.

Why not simply give Provost the power to allow a Magister to take a leave or recuse themselves? Sometime RL just prevents some people from logging on for a period of time (power outages, bad weather, family crisis, etc) and because it's a game, as long as I have a reasonable expectation that they will be back, I believe in cutting players slack for that. One can often find a friend or coffee shop and log in briefly to explain absence due to RL.

Topid asked to take a break from the game and I see every reason to grant that - and no reason to count his empty chair when calculating majority. It is reasonable to expect he'll return. Costada expects to CTE and not return during your term. As unfortunate as that is, it's absence = no expectation of return. Right now "the Conclave" denominator to calculate majority vote in this matter excludes recused Arbiter Allegheny. He made that call because we do not have an odd number of Arbiters, as Concordat requires.

Not only do we rely on each other within Conclave and the Magisterium, all three branches of government rely on each other to be active. I cannot compel the Delegate to nominate an Arbiter nor can I compel Magisterium to approve any nominee. By being inactive, either could allow Conclave to continuously get smaller.

If the majority of Arbiters fail to approve this resolution - either by failing to vote OR by voting NAY, it is defeated. Inactivity renders us unable to act. The minority of Arbiters do not assume powers granted to the majority.
Barb
Arbiter Barbara Manatee
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Chancellor Shaw
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From what I can surmise, this issue is not just about how to tally a vote, but rather about how The East Pacific decides to deal with inactivity. Do we work with inactivity, finding ways to proceed in votes regardless of elected officials who fail to contribute, or do we work against inactivity, removing the status of those who fail to live up to the expectations given to them.

The former option is attractive, but causes what we saw in the last Magisterium term: It allows for those with a passing interest or busy lives to voice their opinion when they want to, and ignore whatever they please. So long as they show reasonable signs of not CTEing, any person can run for and hold position as Magister without worry of causing any harm, as TEP and politics should move along even if they lose interest.

The latter option is difficult to implement, but would be more likely to keep those who desire to be active in the Magisterium. Keeping tabs on, watching the activity level of, and removing inactive Magisters would take a fair bit of work. It would also slow any proceedings in comparison to simply letting inactive people be and not counting their vote. The plus side is that it would keep those who deserve to be Magisters, meaning those who show interest in being active, in a position to help TEP more efficiently.

In my opinion, a happy-medium would be the best solution to find. Something like what Barb said: If a person knows they are going to be away, give them a temporary recusal. If a Magister knows they are not able to devote any time, they should gracefully bow out. I realize that there is currently provisions to remove inactive magisters, but I also know how those proceedings slow progression worse than an inactive magister would.

In summary, if, barring RL circumstances, a magister cannot bother themselves to vote, then they should not be a magister. If you only have magister who are interested in voting, the "Of those voting" clause becomes null. Yes, some grace and leeway should be given, but by and large votes are not a representation of the whole if the whole does not vote. I do, however, agree with he interpretation of "Majority vote" versus "majority consent". If silence cannot be taken as consent, neither should it be taken as against. Silence is what we must avoid.
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Todd McCloud
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I can see both sides having their points.

FPS has clarified that he interprets the concordat to mean majority as majority of voters who have voted, while Barb has argued that majority means majority of eligible voters (in this case, the Magisterium) in totality. One allows for less than a total majority, one requires at least a majority among Magisters currently serving. That, in my opinion, is what it all boils down to.

Now, which one is right?

Quote:
 
Section 4) The Magisterium shall pass laws by majority vote.


The vote must be majority, but it does not explain that all Magisters must vote in order to achieve said majority. I thought about this for a while, but I realized that in the past we have had laws that passed without all Magisters voting (according to the threads in the archive). Historically, most of the provosts have set a time limit, and collected the number of votes during that time frame to determine the outcome. It seems to change from time to time with the different provosts, but that's immaterial. Yet, have we ever had a bill passed in which a majority was achieved in vote, but not in the Magisterium? Yes. According to that bill, four people voted "For", out of a total of 11 Magisters. This doesn't mean that because this happened in the past it is the right way, but I must agree, the sections on voting do not draw a clear distinction between majority of voters and majority of Magisters. It does, however, favor the former than the latter.

I am going to have to agree with FPS. This is what the Concordat seems to state, and this is the way we have passed our laws. This is not necessarily something I personally agree with, but our business is interpreting the Concordat and ensuring whatever passes is aligned to it. Concerns, valid as they may be, cannot interfere with that. I am going to have to therefore lean towards dismissal.

It is my suggestion to the Magisterium, however, that they work on a law to tighten this up better. I am not thrilled that under the current law a vote can pass without the majority of the Magisterium, even more concerning, a vote can pass through just two Magisters. Personally, I like the idea that a vote must pass with at least 50% of the Magisters voting, and these percentages can change for more severe cases, like removing an arbiter or something. However, bear in mind that a majority in the Magisterium does not technically require *all* Magisters to vote. If there are 11 arbiters, and there are 6 for, then a majority is already achieved. So it isn't as if voting would come to a halt. Plus, informing Magisters of a vote is prime and might prevent stagnation. So maybe a total majority would not be a bad thing at all.
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Barb
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Thank you for your thoughtful response. As Todd pointed out, if Magisterium has a legal precedent for enacting law by simple majority of those voting, then I don't object to honoring that precedent.

The super-majority votes of 2/3 and 3/4 are there I presume to restrain drastic action like unseating an elected delegate. I think those votes ought to represent the Magisterium, whatever it's current size is, 3 or 30. If it's size is 30 Magisters and only 3 show up to vote, then the 2/3 and 3/4 requirements of Concordat are meaningless.

We are presented with the standing orders as they are at this moment, not as we wish them to be. I certainly wish the standing orders had been written with some some reasonable restriction on a Magister or two taking drastic action. I specifically object to the definition "of those voting" in Standing Orders II/f, II/g, and III/b.

I will entertain in Conclave debate (when discussion ends) a motion to amend the resolution to read:

"The Magisterium" in Concordat means the Magisters in office in The East Pacific.

The phrase "of those voting" in the Standing Orders of Magisterium is nullified with regard to super-majority votes of the Magisterium of 2/3 or 3/4 when required by Concordat. Magisterium is prohibited from using "of those voting" to determine a super-majority in the voting record of the Magisterium.


This matter is open to all citizens on the Citizenship List (second post here) for comment and discussion, then Conclave shall debate.
Barb
Arbiter Barbara Manatee
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There is no reason to treat super-majority votes differently then regular votes in terms of procedure. The protection against unsavory action IS the super-majority requirement -- there need not be additional procedural action to address the matter.

So far as I am concerned, if we want to limit a small number of Magisters from unsavory action, we need to amend the Concordat to establish a set size for the Magisterium. Restricting the ability of the Magisterium at large to do its job is not the way to get there.
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Barb
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There is a difference because those 2/3 and 3/4 votes can oust elected officials. There is a difference because Magisterium is the only body in government which can oust its own members.

Concordat does specifically use the definition of majority as "those Citizens voting" in Article G, Section 3. In it's reference to Conclave and Magisterium majority votes, Concordat does not.




Barb
Arbiter Barbara Manatee
Ulthar Ambassador to The East Pacific
Convicted Thief of the Crown of the Vizier

Keep TEP beautiful!

The practice of peace and reconciliation is one of the most vital and artistic of human actions. - Thich Nhat Hanh
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Todd McCloud: don't feed the trolls
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Vulshain: you don't want the disco-roller skating bots to come
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There are a number of reasons that the authors of the Conclave may have used that term. But that does not effect the meaning of the words "the Magisterium shall pass laws by majority vote," wherein "majority" describes "vote," not "Magisterium." Nor does it effect the precedent already set by the Magisterium.

And, once again, it goes against already established interpretation of the Conclave. The Conclave specifically stated that the refusal of a Magister to vote on a matter would not be counted as a vote for or against that matter. If "of those voting" is struck, any refusal to vote will automatically become a vote against, thus running against that ruling.
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Barb
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Fair enough. The debate has been both lively and respectful. I thank all who have participated.

The debate by ARBITERS ONLY has begun and will last for 72 hours unless a motion to end debate is passed or extended for an additional 24 hours by a motion and second. If Shaw becomes absent and another Arbiter nominee is not approved, Barb recuses herself if we end up with an even number of Arbiters at the time of vote.

I will continue to preside but cease to debate or vote at the moment of recusal.

I am at a loss to restate the WHEREAS because I think some strong points have been made about this resolution, so Viceroy considers the discussion the record of the reasons for or against.

I am not offering the alternative resolution I suggested because it was rejected by Provost as equally unsatisfactory. If someone else wants to move to resurrect it, they can.

It is resolved that:

"The Magisterium" in Concordat means all elected Magisters in office in The East Pacific.

The phrase "of those voting" in the Standing Orders of Magisterium is nullified. Magisterium is prohibited from using "of those voting" to determine a majority or super-majority in the voting record of the Magisterium.


So what do ya think?
Barb
Arbiter Barbara Manatee
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The practice of peace and reconciliation is one of the most vital and artistic of human actions. - Thich Nhat Hanh
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Chancellor Shaw
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While I do believe that what FPS is saying on the grammatical nuances of which word "majority" is describing is correct, I still interpret the results of that conclusion differently. The majority of the votes cast by the Magisterium shall determine the outcome. That means that if the majority are FOR, the law is passed, if majority is AGAINST, the law is defeated. This does not affect or determine the total number of votes to be tallied in any way. We are all familiar with the clause, but I post it here for reference.
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Section 4) The Magisterium shall pass laws by majority vote.

The Magisterium, as Barb has just proposed in the resolution, is referred to as a whole. If the entirety of the Magisterium does not vote, then it is not the Magisterium that is voting, merely a portion of it. There are no stipulations for only a portion of the Magisterium passing a law. Either the whole passes a law, or the whole prohibits it. A portion, as far as I can tell, can do neither. The number of votes to be tallied should be determined solely by the number of Magisters currently in position.

The largest stumbling block in this, then, is the second point that FPS brought up. If silence cannot count FOR, how can it count AGAINST?

I know our job is merely to judge on the resolution at hand, but I cannot help but try and think of alternatives. If "Of those voting" is disallowed, how will it be ensured that silence is not used against a vote? Perhaps it would be best to extend voting periods until either all Magisters have voted, or it has been determined that a Magister is inactive and will not be voting. The vote could then be put on hold, the inactive Magister either removed or found out as to why they were inactive, and the voting then resumes. It would be a long process, no doubt, but I see no alternatives since we cannot allow silence to defeat a vote.

Thank you for your time
Chancellor Shaw, of the Free Land of Moafin
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Kurogasa
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couldn't the Provost hold a roll call before voting?, counting out the magisters that doesn't show...that way "of those voting" would represent the totality of the active magisterium.
I don't want to conquer the world, I want the people to put me as their leader for themselves (or I will have to conquer it, anyways it will be mine soon).

"What is a rebel? A man who says no" -Albert Camus-

"The greatest joy a man can know is to conquer his enemies and drive them before him. To ride their horses and take away their possessions. To see the faces of those who were dear to them bedewed with tears, and to clasp their wives and daughters in his arms." -Genghis Khan-
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Barb
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Sergeant Hobo 678
My thoughts exactly.

If a Magister can publicly recuse themselves and Magisterium can remove from office a Magister who is inactive, how does a failure to vote count as a NAY vote? It only suggests that they have some housekeeping to do.

A 3/4 majority of Magisterium CAN be three votes if 8 are elected, three resign, and Provost grants the recusal of one more. Look, it's no fun to have people nag you about a game and say "hey, you gotta log on and be active" but no one held a gun to my head and said, "Barb you must be Arbiter or we send DFD to your doorstep with a manatee eating bulldog on crystal meth." I understood I would need to commit some time to fulfilling my duties or I ought to resign.

The resolution before Conclave does not take power away from the Magisterium. It only says that they lose their power if they sabotage their own legislature by persistently ignoring inactivity and fail to act as the sole authority under Concordat to remove absent Magisters. When your job descriptions says vote, I consider not voting absent.

There is no formal consequence for a Provost or Viceroy who freely and persistently grants recusals to anyone who chooses to just not show up and vote. I can imagine there might be political consequences in the long run.

BARB EDIT: After Todd has his say, I will entertain Motion to end debate unless we have more to talk about.
Barb
Arbiter Barbara Manatee
Ulthar Ambassador to The East Pacific
Convicted Thief of the Crown of the Vizier

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Kurogasa
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I agree, but I wouldn't go as far as that...

I was thinking about using the roll call to spot inactive magisters and as such, taking them out from the vote...the decision about kicking the magister out or spanking him/her afterwards is entirely up to the provost

that way a few inactive magisters wouldn't be responsible of stopping the magisterium completely...
I don't want to conquer the world, I want the people to put me as their leader for themselves (or I will have to conquer it, anyways it will be mine soon).

"What is a rebel? A man who says no" -Albert Camus-

"The greatest joy a man can know is to conquer his enemies and drive them before him. To ride their horses and take away their possessions. To see the faces of those who were dear to them bedewed with tears, and to clasp their wives and daughters in his arms." -Genghis Khan-
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Barb
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Sergeant Hobo 678
Maybe I didn't speak clearly. I think you're right. If Provost calls the roll and recuses anyone who doesn't show up, then number who show up IS Magisterium. That's the Provost taking a positive action, recusal, not relying on a rule that allows anyone to participate (or not) as little or as much as they like, and then not vote.

At the moment of recusal, you aren't just a non-voter, you're a non-participant. A recused Arbiter doesn't speak in debate, for instance. That's an important distinction.

The removal decision is entirely up to Magisterium. A record of who is participating and who isn't is perfectly acceptable to me. Their standing orders allow for roll calls.
They don't need to say a majority is "of those voting" to do that.

FPS wants to retain his Magisterium's ability to act - and I do too or our own duties will fall on fewer and fewer hands because we rely on them. I just believe that can BEST be accomplished with the original language of Concordat, which is "the majority of the Magisterium."

BARB EDIT: If there is no Motion to end or extend debate, debate ends Saturday afternoon and VOTING begins.
Barb
Arbiter Barbara Manatee
Ulthar Ambassador to The East Pacific
Convicted Thief of the Crown of the Vizier

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The practice of peace and reconciliation is one of the most vital and artistic of human actions. - Thich Nhat Hanh
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Todd McCloud
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I still believe the way in which FPS interpreted the Concordat is correct. Section four only states (yeah, I know, repeated again, lol): "Section 4) The Magisterium shall pass laws by majority vote." It doesn't say the Majority of the Magisterium is needed to vote (or any number apart from a majority for that matter), it doesn't say that the Magisterium in its totality must vote or recuse themselves. It only says, bare bones, laws will pass by a majority vote. There are no further specifications, so I will have to continue to lean toward that direction.

Keep in mind this is not how I want things to be done - I like the suggestions made in this thread. But it's how I interpret it. Due to this, I would really like the Magisterium to hammer this out. I feel this section of the concordat is too broad.
"Your uniform doesn't seem to fit. You're much too alive in it."

"You must be the change you want to see in the world" - Gandhi
"The worst prison would be a closed heart." - Pope John Paul II
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Barb
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Thank you Todd.

Well put. Smart people can disagree without impugning the intentions or character of others, in short without making it personal.

*throws water balloon at Todd*

Seriously, I really enjoy working with thoughtful people. If you haven't visited the Delegate election thread on recount, it's pretty funny. Pack did a challenge to my miscount of the vote and hilarity ensued. As it should in TEP.

*throws another water balloon at Shaw just because he needs to get used to the feeling of being wet most of the time*

I will either entertain Motion to end debate and voting on that motion (not the resolution) begins upon a second by another Arbiter. If no motion, voting begins around 1:00 PM US Eastern Time tomorrow.

Either way, voting begins after Viceroy restates the Resolution and calls for vote.
Barb
Arbiter Barbara Manatee
Ulthar Ambassador to The East Pacific
Convicted Thief of the Crown of the Vizier

Keep TEP beautiful!

The practice of peace and reconciliation is one of the most vital and artistic of human actions. - Thich Nhat Hanh
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Todd McCloud: don't feed the trolls
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Chancellor Shaw
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Bill Stickers is Innocent
*quickly dries himself off with a towel* You know, I am going to be plenty wet enough over the next while, I would prefer to stay dry until the last possible moment. :P

I would like to Motion to END DEBATE.
Thank you for your time
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Todd McCloud
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Chancellor Shaw
Sep 17 2010, 06:11 PM
*quickly dries himself off with a towel* You know, I am going to be plenty wet enough over the next while, I would prefer to stay dry until the last possible moment. :P

I would like to Motion to END DEBATE.

Motion seconded :mac:
"Your uniform doesn't seem to fit. You're much too alive in it."

"You must be the change you want to see in the world" - Gandhi
"The worst prison would be a closed heart." - Pope John Paul II
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Barb
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Sergeant Hobo 678
MOTION TO END DEBATE

Barb votes AYE
Barb
Arbiter Barbara Manatee
Ulthar Ambassador to The East Pacific
Convicted Thief of the Crown of the Vizier

Keep TEP beautiful!

The practice of peace and reconciliation is one of the most vital and artistic of human actions. - Thich Nhat Hanh
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Todd McCloud: don't feed the trolls
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Todd McCloud
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Todd votes AYE
"Your uniform doesn't seem to fit. You're much too alive in it."

"You must be the change you want to see in the world" - Gandhi
"The worst prison would be a closed heart." - Pope John Paul II
Vekaiyu's Wiki Page | Ikrisia Levinile's Wiki Page | Listonia's Wiki Page
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Chancellor Shaw
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Bill Stickers is Innocent
Shaw votes AYE
Thank you for your time
Chancellor Shaw, of the Free Land of Moafin
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Barb
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Sergeant Hobo 678
The AYES have it and we're within a couple hours of the vote being triggered by schedule without a motion anyhow. Viceroy calls the vote.

The resolution before Conclave is:

It is resolved that:

"The Magisterium" in Concordat means all elected Magisters in office in The East Pacific.

The phrase "of those voting" in the Standing Orders of Magisterium is nullified. Magisterium is prohibited from using "of those voting" to determine a majority or super-majority in the voting record of the Magisterium.


A majority of Arbiter AYE vote approves this resolution and a majority NAY vote dismisses it.
Barb
Arbiter Barbara Manatee
Ulthar Ambassador to The East Pacific
Convicted Thief of the Crown of the Vizier

Keep TEP beautiful!

The practice of peace and reconciliation is one of the most vital and artistic of human actions. - Thich Nhat Hanh
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Todd McCloud: don't feed the trolls
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Vulshain: you don't want the disco-roller skating bots to come
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Chancellor Shaw
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Bill Stickers is Innocent
My final official words in the Conclave for the immediate future:

Shaw votes AYE.
Thank you for your time
Chancellor Shaw, of the Free Land of Moafin
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Kandarin
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Kandarin votes AYE.
"Torpored Caitiff Antediluvian"

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ClipSnap says:
Kandarin should just implode from the sheer ridiculousness of it all.
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I mean, no nation could ever sustain that many contradicting belief systems and still exist.
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Kurogasa
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Kurogasa votes AYE.
I don't want to conquer the world, I want the people to put me as their leader for themselves (or I will have to conquer it, anyways it will be mine soon).

"What is a rebel? A man who says no" -Albert Camus-

"The greatest joy a man can know is to conquer his enemies and drive them before him. To ride their horses and take away their possessions. To see the faces of those who were dear to them bedewed with tears, and to clasp their wives and daughters in his arms." -Genghis Khan-
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Todd McCloud
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Planet Telox
Todd votes NAY
"Your uniform doesn't seem to fit. You're much too alive in it."

"You must be the change you want to see in the world" - Gandhi
"The worst prison would be a closed heart." - Pope John Paul II
Vekaiyu's Wiki Page | Ikrisia Levinile's Wiki Page | Listonia's Wiki Page
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Barb
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Sergeant Hobo 678
Barb votes AYE.

The Vote Tally (subject to recount, LOL) is:
AYE = 4
NAY = 1

The resolution is approved.
Barb
Arbiter Barbara Manatee
Ulthar Ambassador to The East Pacific
Convicted Thief of the Crown of the Vizier

Keep TEP beautiful!

The practice of peace and reconciliation is one of the most vital and artistic of human actions. - Thich Nhat Hanh
Quote:
 
Todd McCloud: don't feed the trolls
Quote:
 
Vulshain: you don't want the disco-roller skating bots to come
Quote:
 
Kurogasa: honest to Quetzalcoatl
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
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