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[TRIAL] "TEP vs. Anur-Sanur"; Criminal Case- Public Nuisance: Concordat
Topic Started: Nov 9 2010, 05:25:10 PM (1,727 Views)
Barb
Member Avatar
Sergeant Hobo 678
The matter before Conclave is to determine if Anur-Sanur has committed acts that constitute deliberately being a public nuisance in violation of Article F, Section 1 of Concordat.

Proceedings here are to be conducted in accordance with Concordat the Standing Orders of Conclave.

Order of the Proceeding

1. Definition of INTERESTED PARTIES will be posted here in bold at all times.

INTERESTED PARTIES: NONE - Arbiters only.

If any citizen is interested and wants to post in a trial, they are asked to please contact either Viceroy to post evidence or the nation facing Conclave to post for the defense. Any non-citizen must make a compelling argument directly to Viceroy for consideration. If they can convince me, then Conclave will decide if they want to hear a non-citizen.

Arbiters may post at any time or choose to listen until debate. Now that Todd McCloud has been elected Magister, he is no longer an Arbiter per Concordat. That leaves Conclave with 6, an even number, so although Viceroy will preside over Conclave, Arbiter Barb has recused herself from debate and voting.

Any Arbiter may move for dismissal of the proceeding at any time. Any nation that posts on this matter in Conclave or in any other place on the forum about this matter that is not an Interested Party - and whose post is deemed disruptive to the trial - will be referred by Viceroy for consideration of consequences by forum Admin.

2. The Evidence. Viceroy will begin posting evidence which lead to her decision to deny naturalization of Anur-Sanur as time allows prior to start of trial. Viceroy has posted her case. Interested parties may post evidence at any time in support of the matter for the first 48 hours, which may be extended to a total of 72 hours by the request of any Arbiter.

3. The Defense. On Wednesday, November 17, the accused shall be granted 72 hours to present an initial defense, which may include the naming of a representative pursuant to Concordat and any witnesses. Witnesses are subject to approval of Conclave if they are not citizens. The accused is asked to post the name of any representative and a list of approved witnesses (if any) in the trial thread at the time of defense. Any Interested Party may post exculpatory evidence for the defense to defeat the matter during this period of time. If the accused posts no defense within 72 hours, defense is waived. Arbiters may listen to the defense or post questions as they please.

4. The Debate. On Saturday November 20, this thread will be closed to ARBITERS ONLY for debate of up to 72 hours, extended to 96 hours by the request of any Arbiter. A seconded Motion to vote receiving no objections within 24 hours shall have started the vote.

5. The Vote. The Vote will be called by Viceroy and each Arbiter in attendance shall have 72 hours to vote.

What is evidence is support of the matter or in support of the defense

  • What the accused did and did not do concurrent with and subsequent to requesting naturalization October 24
  • The reasonableness of the decision of Viceroy to refuse to restore the citizenship of the accused, whose citizenship was suspended by a previous Viceroy after hundreds of days of inactivity
What is NOT evidence in support of the matter or in support of the defense

  • Inferences and accusations about the character of the players
  • A debate about whether the existing laws of The East Pacific or Order of Proceedings is fair, proper, or otherwise not good
  • The activities of Forum Admin, over whom Conclave has no jurisdiction
  • Matters on the Calendar of or under consideration by Magisterium or Conclave unrelated to the conduct of Anur-Sanur and the naturalization decision of Viceroy
Please: no name calling, no ascii, no hyperbole, no uninvited or untimely posts. Just the facts as you see them when you are called upon to present them.
Barb
Arbiter Barbara Manatee
Ulthar Ambassador to The East Pacific
Convicted Thief of the Crown of the Vizier

Keep TEP beautiful!

The practice of peace and reconciliation is one of the most vital and artistic of human actions. - Thich Nhat Hanh
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Barb
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Sergeant Hobo 678
Viceroy's Evidence in Support of the Matter

January 8, 2009 - Anur-Sanur joins TEP forum and ratifies Concordat. Nation made 21 posts and left, prompting previous Viceroy to suspend citizenship for several hundred days of inactivity.

October 22, 2010 - Anur-Sanur sent forum Admin Kelssek the following TG:
Quote:
 
The Republic of Anur-Sanur
New. 11 hours ago I have reactivated my nation and am entitled to regain my citizenship in accordance with the law found here: http://z1.invisionfree.com/forums/The_East...?showtopic=7069
Please grant me my citizenship accordingly.


Both Kelssek and Viceroy Barb sent Anur-Sanur instructions to log on to TEP Forum and ratify Concordat.

October 24, 2010 - Anur-Sanur logs into forum and ratifies Conordat. A check of the nation by Viceroy indicates it has exceeded the Secondary Endocap, so Viceroy places request under advisement and contacts Forum Admin.

October 24, 2010 - Anur-Sanur posted in Citizenship thread:
Quote:
 
Quote:
 
ultharambassadorbarbara,Oct 24 2010, 06:40 PM - The naturalization of Anur-Sanur and of Romania and Moldova are pending review."

may Anur-Sanur inquire as to the need and nature of this review?

as evident on this forum, other nations were immediately granted citizenship following a similar declaration of ratification that Anur-Sanur and R&M have made.

The law states:

==Article E: Citizenship==

Section 1) A Citizen of the East Pacific is a resident of the East Pacific that has ratified this Concordat.

I have done this, what is there to review? Further, the Citizen Suspension Act, which applies directly to the nation of Anur-Sanur states:


1. This law may be cited as the Citizenship Suspension Act.

Suspension and restoration of citizenship privileges

2. Any one who is a citizen of the East Pacific and whose NationStates nation account has ceased to exist may have their citizenship and all rights and privileges pertaining thereunto suspended.

3. Any one who has had their citizenship suspended under section 2 regains full citizenship upon the reactivation of their NationStates nation account.

Anur-Sanur has been reactivated. Anur-Sanur is once again a citizen. My orders to reaffirm said citizenship were unwarranted under the law, yet Anur-Sanur did them out of courtesy.

Now Anur-Sanur is "pending review", whilst other nations have been embraced with the utmost expedience. Anur-Sanur feels the Viceory, the leader of the Conclave, currently sits on shaky legal ground, and once again implores her to provide an explanation of the review.

Anur-Sanur is not naive. We understand that some have been bothered by our rising endorsements. We have addressed this in the Executive forums. That is the place for it to be discussed. It is cowardice to avoid debate on the issue, and to instead illegally hold up Anur-Sanur's citizenship. Due to these injuries, Anur-Sanur has been unable to exercise her rights, such as voting on the current WA matter at hand.

Anur-Sanur submits that these injuries be taken into consideration immediately. Anur-Sanur is confident that her fellow TEP nations intend TEP to be a region of laws, and that the law will prevail.

To insure understanding, Anur-Sanur wishes to indicate that none of this reflects the case she will bring before the Conclave in due time, that is of another matter.


Delegate Allegheny instruct Anur-Sanur to take the complaint about Viceroy to Conclave and Packilvania confirms nation is currently in violation of TEP law in Citizenship Thread.

Viceroy's opinion: Much of what I consider trolling is like light rain. It's not the same as dumping a bucket of cold water over your head, but when there's enough of it, it has an identical effect: it's accusational, inferential, and hyperbolic. Observe the words in the post by the accused - emphasis mine:



  • Viceory, the leader of the Conclave, currently sits on shaky legal ground


  • It is cowardice to avoid debate on the issue


  • and to instead illegally hold up Anur-Sanur's citizenship


  • Due to these injuries, Anur-Sanur has been unable to exercise her rights


That "right" Anur-Sanur complains was denied was not voting in the WA, it was not voting in the WA poll that Drakk keeps.[/i]

October 24, 2010 - Anur-Sanur posts in Executive:
Quote:
 
The Republic of Anur-Sanur, has several things to address.

First of all, Kangarawa and Free Pacific States seem to suggest that Anur-Sanur is breaking TEP law. It is illegal under Section 5(1) of the Endorsement Cap Act to solicit endorsements while in excess of the cap. Anur-Sanur has not done so. Those solicitations were made while Anur-Sanur was under the cap. Thus Anur-Sanur regards the actions of Kangarawa and Free Pacific States as slander.

Second, Anur-Sanur does not need an education on the laws of TEP. The incessant telegrams Anur-Sanur has received from a multitude of TEP nations has only irritated her. The law permits temporarily being over the cap, as long as the offending nation, in a reasonable time frame, returns to compliance. Anur-Sanur has done so. Anur-Sanur must must inquire as to how she is violating trust when she is in accordance with all laws?

In this very forum you will find record of Anur-Sanur’s previous endorsement counts, and you will find record of other nations who slightly went over the cap and did not receive a dissertation on the matter. Is 77 so different from 81? Anur-Sanur questions the apparent paranoia of citizens of TEP, as 1 endorsement over the cap seems to send nations into nervous calamity. How can the suggestion be made that Anur-Sanur's actions indicate an attempt to subvert the delegacy, a power possessing 154 endorsements?

This region has much more to worry about. Anur-Sanur only wishes that the zeal that is reserved for maintaining the endorsement cap in the executive was representative of the enthusiasm of the other governing bodies in TEP. I am still labeled as a member, not a citizen, after repeated requests to have the injury rectified. I have proven my credentials and they have not been questioned. Why then does this forum not acknowledge my citizenship? This has rendered me unable to vote on the WA resolution at hand. Why is this not addressed? I have a matter to bring before the Conclave and have spoken to the Viceory, but my messages have been ignored. Furthermore, the Viceory is unable to clarify the nations currently serving on the Conclave. How can the laws even be expected to be respected when the status of the judiciary is in question?

Yet the focus seems to be here, on the fact that for some hours, Anur-Sanur was 1 endorsement over the cap, within her legal rights.

Anur-Sanur submits that the priorities of some of her fellow TEP nations are sorely misplaced.


Viceroy's opinion: First, the argument about endos is irrational. If I solicit 100 endos and get 81, I'm over the cap. Even if it's legal to load the gun, that does not mean it's legal to use that gun to break the law. It's effort to tart over 80 endos. It's deliberate, it's illegal, and it's a nuisance to protest that you can't be naturalized while you are in violation of that law.

Again the language: observe the words of the the accused - emphasis mine:



  • Anur-Sanur regards the actions of Kangarawa and Free Pacific States as slander


  • Anur-Sanur questions the apparent paranoia of citizens of TEP


  • Anur-Sanur only wishes that the zeal that is reserved for maintaining the endorsement cap in the executive was representative of the enthusiasm of the other governing bodies in TEP


  • I have a matter to bring before the Conclave and have spoken to the Viceroy, but my messages have been ignored


  • How can the laws even be expected to be respected when the status of the judiciary is in question?


  • the priorities of some of her fellow TEP nations are sorely misplaced


Notice the rare use of a declarative. These are primarily questions and opinions. If the defense is, Am I not allowed to ask questions? Am I not allowed to have my own opinion? The Viceroy's response is no, not in this fashion. Paranoid is a mental health term for being delusional, slander is a legal term for harming someone with a false accusation.

The refutation of both is the truth. Todd and Allegheny did engage in trying to educate the accused regarding the endocap. Their reward is being questioned as cowards avoiding debate. Kangawara and FPS did likewise and are accused of slander. They denied the accused nothing and caused them no harm.

The record indicates Viceroy did not ignore Anur-Sanur. That's false. The accused conflates being told no with being ignored.[/i]

October 25, 2010 - Anur-Sanur refuses to bring still mysterious "urgent matter for Conclave" when invited, asking that Viceroy considers naturalization first so Viceroy did: denied for deliberately being a public nuisance.

Viceroy instantly opened a thread for the accused to question this decision. Anur-Sanur declined, then posted in the Lounge just prior to Viceroy closing naturalization:
Quote:
 
is it just me or are Magister elections coming up?

last record i saw was August 11, 2010

it's supposed to be every 3 months...so wouldn't that be very soon...?

no campaign threads or anything?


Viceroy opinion: it is not a benign act to spontaneously publicize an election before naturalization is suspended. It is a threat to region security.

November 3, 2010 - In the Citizenship Thread, after being instructed by Delegate and Viceroy (three times) not to debate the naturalization of the accused on the Citizenship Thread, Anur-Sanur did it anyway - again.
Quote:
 
Quote:
 
ultharambassadorbarbara,Nov 3 2010, 06:14 PM - Viceroy has suspended naturalization of new citizens until the completion of the Magisterium election.  A citizenship list will be posted here tomorrow.  Please check it for accuracy and lemme know if there are errors.

please understand my concern.

as my citizenship is under review, if you do this and even if I win, I would not be able to vote in this cycle.

since a date has not yet been set for the election, couldn't this action be postponed until a later time?


Viceroy opinion: Hubbawha? The East Pacific is being asked - in the wrong place at the wrong time (again) to violate our Concordat prescribed election cycle to allow this nation a trial instead. Again, Viceroy said no. I also point out to my fellow Arbiters that this nation doesn't occasionally refuse to cooperate with the leadership of the region, it persistently spums our forum in defiance of it.

November 3, 2010 - Accused sends PM to Viceroy:
Quote:
 
hey

DFD has to be reigned in.

I understood your request to mean I can't post in the Conclave regarding my trial. All I'm doing is trying to openly communicate. The thread shouldn't have been locked, and DFD has a personal grudge against me that inhibits her from being an effective arbiter and admin.

so far you have acted with impressive impartiality and respectable fairness. I hope you can reign in your colleague so that such a favorable atmosphere can be maintained.


OK, I have enough evidence. Good cop, bad cop - I get it. Divide and conquer. More of the same questioning our judgment, our fairness, our competence, our icky bad grudges against damaging region morale and disrupting our fun.

"Open communication" isn't posting anywhere and anytime you please hurtful accusations of cowardice, paranoia, slander, causing injuries, and acting illegally. Freedom of speech isn't the same as questioning mental health and accusing others in a MMORPG of a RL crime. It's a game.

If any Interested Party has anything else has more they want to throw in, feel free. I am convinced by this evidence alone that this nation has been repeatedly and deliberately been a public nuisance since its return to TEP and should not be naturalized as a citizen. Ever.

---------

November 9, 2010 - TG of Anur-Sanur to Viceroy:
Quote:
 
i can't do two at once.

please push back my trial after R&M as reflected in the calendar and do to the fact that I am R&M's representation.

R&M trial should be finished before mine starts, as again, I am her defense.


Viceroy responds: No. Viceroy does one trial at a time. Prepare your defense.

Your trial is first. You were denied citizenship first. You don't get a second bite at our forum apple as a representative in an unrelated matter until you satisfy Conclave that you have not violated the law of the region in the pending matter.

I already posted: Matters on the Calendar under consideration by Magisterium or Conclave unrelated to the conduct of Anur-Sanur and the naturalization decision of Viceroy are NOT evidence in your trial. I rescheduled this matter at your request. The patience of Viceroy and Conclave was granted but is not infinite, nor is it a right.

You now have about 9 days to prepare an initial defense because I presented my initial evidence today. Any other matters before Conclave you cite are not relevant to the evidence presented. Your success requires that you focus on what is posted above.

A final thought about deliberately being a public nuisance:
Nuisance means to be annoying in a way that interferes with the enjoyment, in this instance, of the region. We have different tolerances for the amount of conflict we find annoying and this is a matter of opinion - and it is - but might I suggest there are things that are objectively annoying to a reasonable player. You don't have to agree that all of the evidence meets that criteria to agree that taken in totality, either the evidence convinces you that Anur-Sanur should be exonerated or found guilty.
Barb
Arbiter Barbara Manatee
Ulthar Ambassador to The East Pacific
Convicted Thief of the Crown of the Vizier

Keep TEP beautiful!

The practice of peace and reconciliation is one of the most vital and artistic of human actions. - Thich Nhat Hanh
Quote:
 
Todd McCloud: don't feed the trolls
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Vulshain: you don't want the disco-roller skating bots to come
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Kurogasa: honest to Quetzalcoatl
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Barb
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Sergeant Hobo 678
We now in the Evidence phase of the trial.

The Delegate has gracefully declined to participate. Forum Admin and Moderators are invited to post any evidence in support of the matter, particularly anything from the Admin forum that was moved for preservation.

Any citizen who wants to be named an Interested Party, please PM Viceroy Barb.

Any citizen wishing to post evidence for the defense should contact the accused by NationStates TG and request that Anur-Sanur name them in this thread on Wednesday. All evidence to in support of the defense to defeat the matter will be heard Wednesday through Saturday.

No one may post throughout the entire trial except Arbiters.
Barb
Arbiter Barbara Manatee
Ulthar Ambassador to The East Pacific
Convicted Thief of the Crown of the Vizier

Keep TEP beautiful!

The practice of peace and reconciliation is one of the most vital and artistic of human actions. - Thich Nhat Hanh
Quote:
 
Todd McCloud: don't feed the trolls
Quote:
 
Vulshain: you don't want the disco-roller skating bots to come
Quote:
 
Kurogasa: honest to Quetzalcoatl
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Barb
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Sergeant Hobo 678
I received a TG about this trial.

The initial criticism it contained about freedom of speech is valid - so I reworded the initial post. The warning about posting elsewhere on the forum is directed to trial participants - and anyone who would try to disrupt a trial. Nothing I posted restricts a citizen's freedom of speech as defined by Concordat. I don't control what goes on outside of Conclave, so what it says is that I will ask Admin to consider if a post I deem disruptive merits consequences.

Saying that Viceroy will point at a post and ask Admin to consider it is not a restriction of freedom of speech. Might it have a "chilling effect?" Yep. Intentionally. Do I roam the forum looking for said posts? Nope.

The public has had from October 25 to November 15 to say anything they like. During a trial I request citizens consider restraint might be wise to protect the fairness of the process. If you want to contribute to the trial, instructions are in the first post. Post it here please. That warning - which I post in every trial - came out of a discussion by Arbiters concerned that we protect the accused from verbal attacks elsewhere on the forum.

What is and is not disruptive speech is the matter at hand. The most liberal construction of freedom of speech has never included saying anything you want anytime you want where ever you want. That's never been protected behavior.

More specific rules about what folks can and can't say outside Conclave about a trial during a trial are likely to have unintended consequences. I respond regrding matters pending before Conclave only in Conclave. We are here to listen to the evidence, then decide. We decline to comment on Conclave matters elsewhere.

That might be considered pre-judicial. You can't get clarification from us elsewhere. It's not a law, it's just common sense why we roll that way.

As for this
Quote:
 
... why hold a huge public trial as to whether to or not he was a pain when he isn't allowed to post on the forums anymore? He can't be a pain anymore, so what is the point in taking any more action against him on those grounds?

...it just seems like extra drama for nothing to me...

The accused didn't leave the forum or the region. The forum account was not locked out. It was temporarily restricted to Conclave by forum Admin pending the result of this trial. Explicitly. The accused asked for a trial. As a previously naturalized citizen, that is a right.

The point?

  • Viceroy alleges citizens were flamed and trolled by the accused. They have rights, too.
  • This isn't huge: I intentionally included only evidence associated with my decision to deny naturalization because I deem it sufficient. There are other posts that were moved by Admin. They can add them here - or choose not to - as they see fit. That's their call.
  • This trial by law must be public.
  • The accused is essentially alleged to have been annoying in a way that interferes with the enjoyment of others, not accused of arson or homicide.
  • This is not drama. This is whether or not our community tolerates certain behavior.
The point is that IRL authorities don't decline to prosecute a suspected arsonist just because the fire is out and someone took their matches away from them.
Barb
Arbiter Barbara Manatee
Ulthar Ambassador to The East Pacific
Convicted Thief of the Crown of the Vizier

Keep TEP beautiful!

The practice of peace and reconciliation is one of the most vital and artistic of human actions. - Thich Nhat Hanh
Quote:
 
Todd McCloud: don't feed the trolls
Quote:
 
Vulshain: you don't want the disco-roller skating bots to come
Quote:
 
Kurogasa: honest to Quetzalcoatl
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Barb
Member Avatar
Sergeant Hobo 678
No additional evidence from Admin has been submitted.

This trial now enters the Defense phase. Anur-Sanur is welcome to post a defense, name a representative (or not), and call witnesses who are citizens (or not). Posting is by invitation of Anur-Sanur.

The naming of non-citizens as witnesses must include justification for their presence in this matter. Whether or not their presence here is proper will be considered by the Arbiters in attendance.

Anur-Sanur is also free to post no defense. That is a right and exercising a right is not a guilty plea.

Anur-Sanur is reminded that this is a game and they cannot compel any nation or Arbiter to respond to inquiries if they choose not to: we have no subpoena powers. No one here including the Arbiters can name players who do not wish to join in the defense to participate at this time. Think of this as filing a written brief for the Arbiters to read.

The accused has the next 72 hours to post evidence to defeat the matter. Arbiters may pose questions or choose not to do so as they see fit. Anur-Sanur may use all of the 72 hours or simply end the defense phase of the trial by indicating they have nothing further to add.
Barb
Arbiter Barbara Manatee
Ulthar Ambassador to The East Pacific
Convicted Thief of the Crown of the Vizier

Keep TEP beautiful!

The practice of peace and reconciliation is one of the most vital and artistic of human actions. - Thich Nhat Hanh
Quote:
 
Todd McCloud: don't feed the trolls
Quote:
 
Vulshain: you don't want the disco-roller skating bots to come
Quote:
 
Kurogasa: honest to Quetzalcoatl
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Barb
Member Avatar
Sergeant Hobo 678
No defense is posted. The defense of Anur-Sanur is waived.

Debate among the Arbiters ONLY begins today. Barb is recused, so Viceroy will not be debating.

Arbiter debate will last of up to 72 hours, extended to 96 hours by the request of any Arbiter. A seconded Motion to vote receiving no objections from a fellow Arbiter within 24 hours shall have started the vote. That motion may be made by any Arbiter at any time during debate.

If you feel no need to debate, Viceroy will entertain a motion to vote at any time, and a second. Any Arbiter objecting has 24 hours to ask to delay the vote for additional time to consider the charge and the evidence.
Barb
Arbiter Barbara Manatee
Ulthar Ambassador to The East Pacific
Convicted Thief of the Crown of the Vizier

Keep TEP beautiful!

The practice of peace and reconciliation is one of the most vital and artistic of human actions. - Thich Nhat Hanh
Quote:
 
Todd McCloud: don't feed the trolls
Quote:
 
Vulshain: you don't want the disco-roller skating bots to come
Quote:
 
Kurogasa: honest to Quetzalcoatl
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Der Fuhrer Dyszel
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Cool like Snakes

Anur-Sanur has not posted. I believe no debate is necessary. I feel if you can make the time to accuse everyone of unfairly victimizing you, spend hours incessantly PM'ing members to gain their support, but fail to find time to represent yourself and your actions in a trial than we should not waste our time further. Seems like your standard clear-cut case of trolling.

I motion to move to a vote.

Official Approval by Terasu

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MASTER OF PSYCHOSODOMY

You can't ignore my girth.


Terasu: "Well done DFD you imploded the universe"

:lol:


;)

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Barb
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Sergeant Hobo 678
Motion to vote by Arbiter DFD.

Second or objection?
Barb
Arbiter Barbara Manatee
Ulthar Ambassador to The East Pacific
Convicted Thief of the Crown of the Vizier

Keep TEP beautiful!

The practice of peace and reconciliation is one of the most vital and artistic of human actions. - Thich Nhat Hanh
Quote:
 
Todd McCloud: don't feed the trolls
Quote:
 
Vulshain: you don't want the disco-roller skating bots to come
Quote:
 
Kurogasa: honest to Quetzalcoatl
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drakkengard
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WA Liaison
Seconded.
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Barb
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Sergeant Hobo 678
Second acknowledged.

Any Aribiter who is interested in debate may engage in the next 24 hours or request extension of debate.

If no Arbiter objection, voting is called as of 8:30 PMish US Eastern 21 November 2010.
Barb
Arbiter Barbara Manatee
Ulthar Ambassador to The East Pacific
Convicted Thief of the Crown of the Vizier

Keep TEP beautiful!

The practice of peace and reconciliation is one of the most vital and artistic of human actions. - Thich Nhat Hanh
Quote:
 
Todd McCloud: don't feed the trolls
Quote:
 
Vulshain: you don't want the disco-roller skating bots to come
Quote:
 
Kurogasa: honest to Quetzalcoatl
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Kurogasa
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Viceroy
I agree with DFD, what's the point of debating when the accused doesn't even show at her trial?...

I'll wait for the vote.
I don't want to conquer the world, I want the people to put me as their leader for themselves (or I will have to conquer it, anyways it will be mine soon).

"What is a rebel? A man who says no" -Albert Camus-

"The greatest joy a man can know is to conquer his enemies and drive them before him. To ride their horses and take away their possessions. To see the faces of those who were dear to them bedewed with tears, and to clasp their wives and daughters in his arms." -Genghis Khan-
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Barb
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Sergeant Hobo 678
The matter for Conclave to determine is if:

Anur-Sanur has committed acts that constitute deliberately being a public nuisance in violation of Article F, Section 1 of Concordat.

AYE or YES confirms the above.

NAY or NO dismisses the charge.

All Arbiters in attendance are asked to please vote. Vote will end when all Arbiters in attendance have voted or 72 hours have expired, which ever comes first.
Barb
Arbiter Barbara Manatee
Ulthar Ambassador to The East Pacific
Convicted Thief of the Crown of the Vizier

Keep TEP beautiful!

The practice of peace and reconciliation is one of the most vital and artistic of human actions. - Thich Nhat Hanh
Quote:
 
Todd McCloud: don't feed the trolls
Quote:
 
Vulshain: you don't want the disco-roller skating bots to come
Quote:
 
Kurogasa: honest to Quetzalcoatl
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Kurogasa
Member Avatar
Viceroy
seeing as she did all those things and didn't care about defending herself, I have to imagine it was on purpose...so...

Aye.
I don't want to conquer the world, I want the people to put me as their leader for themselves (or I will have to conquer it, anyways it will be mine soon).

"What is a rebel? A man who says no" -Albert Camus-

"The greatest joy a man can know is to conquer his enemies and drive them before him. To ride their horses and take away their possessions. To see the faces of those who were dear to them bedewed with tears, and to clasp their wives and daughters in his arms." -Genghis Khan-
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Chancellor Shaw
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Bill Stickers is Innocent

AYE
Thank you for your time
Chancellor Shaw, of the Free Land of Moafin
Moafin Wiki: under construction
Moafin Q&A

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drakkengard
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WA Liaison
Aye.
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Barb
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Sergeant Hobo 678
The vote of Conclave is: 3 = affirming charges brought.
2 = not voting.

The majority has spoken, the matter is approved. 72 hours have expired. Sentencing phase begins for Arbiters in attendance only.

We have had one previous trial AFAIK on this issue: here.

Nations may be warned, temporarily banned, or permanently banned. This nation has been warned and temporarily banned from the forum except for Conclave. It did not show up for trial, but it did move out of the region and posted on The Rejected Realms RMB yesterday essentially that the leaders of TRR should not be leaders and the authority of their government should be rejected.

The irony of which is not lost on me.

Someone please suggest a sentence and call for a vote.
Barb
Arbiter Barbara Manatee
Ulthar Ambassador to The East Pacific
Convicted Thief of the Crown of the Vizier

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Chancellor Shaw
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Anur-Sanur has, in my opinion, continually shown a lack of respect and at times contempt towards many people and laws of TEP. Bearing that in mind, as well as the fact that Anur-Sanur chose to make absolutely no presence during this trial and has shown no signs of remorse or regret, I would like to follow the example set by the Conclave in the previous similar trial and motion for a vote to Permanently Ban Anur-Sanur.
Thank you for your time
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Der Fuhrer Dyszel
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Permanent ban for consistent pattern of disruptive and destructive behavior in this region and others.




Official Approval by Terasu

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MASTER OF PSYCHOSODOMY

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Terasu: "Well done DFD you imploded the universe"

:lol:


;)

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Kurogasa
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Chancellor Shaw
 

I would like to follow the example set by the Conclave in the previous similar trial and motion for a vote to Permanently Ban Anur-Sanur.


The actual sentence was a Temporary ban and after that he would only receive 1 warning before being perma banned.

And I think something similar should be the sentence for Anur-Sanur. The only difference is that the Temp ban period should be a month.

The reason is that I believe everyone deserves a chance to correct their mistakes, and I can't deny Anur-Sanur that, even when she has done more than a few...

And for the record, she didn't move to TRR, she was ejected from the region, I saw it in the national Happenings
I don't want to conquer the world, I want the people to put me as their leader for themselves (or I will have to conquer it, anyways it will be mine soon).

"What is a rebel? A man who says no" -Albert Camus-

"The greatest joy a man can know is to conquer his enemies and drive them before him. To ride their horses and take away their possessions. To see the faces of those who were dear to them bedewed with tears, and to clasp their wives and daughters in his arms." -Genghis Khan-
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Der Fuhrer Dyszel
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Consistent pattern of behavior.

Official Approval by Terasu

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You can't ignore my girth.


Terasu: "Well done DFD you imploded the universe"

:lol:


;)

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Der Fuhrer Dyszel
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Let me remind this Conclave while you all dilly-dallied on deciding whether or not Kurd deserved a "second chance" he persisted to privately troll people. A ban for regional disruption should not be a ban that is lifted. You hurt the community more in the long run.

You not only hurt the existing members who were trolled by that person, but you also foster a sense of distrust. When you cannot make a decision and stick to it, you are seen as being weak and ineffective. When you have too much empathy for troublemakers, you threaten the integrity of this entire region. I will admit that I have looked at members and think they are too weak to hold their positions because their naive attitude towards the nature of a troll has in the past damaged the community. I will be honest, that thought has influenced some of my decisions in this game.

I actually did quit because of this region's response to AS. I walked away because of this region's inability to see the damage being done by this troll. What you may not consider is that you see a few smatterings of trouble on the forums, some disruptive behaviors, a few cutting remarks here and there, jabs at other players. And you think "well it's not that bad, they deserve another chance." All the while, that troll you are letting exist while you have a conscientious moment hoping that maybe this person will suddenly change their ways is doing significantly more damage behind the scenes.

I have lived through several instances in NS where a region could not decide whether or not to ban a troublemaker because they were hoping he/she would change. I watched damn good players quit because of it. While people were caught in the nonsense, "well so and so deserves a second chance," those members being targeted were being defaced publicly and/or privately. They felt abandoned by their respective regions and its community resulting in them deciding to quit. I empathized for people this happened to in the past and I at one time advocated for giving people a chance until I saw for myself just how badly it hurt some people behind the screen. When it comes to trolls, you need to stop looking on the surface and look a lot deeper. Who is being hurt? Is it worth potentially losing so and so, causing this problem, fracturing the community, what have you for that ONE member?

The thing here is the chance was blown. AS HAD the chance to change before the trial. AS's refusal to change should be noted. Whether or not they were banned, a consistent pattern of behavior here or elsewhere is a consistent pattern of behavior nonetheless. AS has shown NO change in their behavior either before or after their ban, thus proving the legitimate need for the ban.

I have seen a lot of communities fractured over bad players. Sometimes they deliberately seek out that result and other times it is unintentional. Nonetheless, you are dealing with real people in this game....and the real people you are hurting the most are not those trolls you are throwing out of your region....it's all those regional members being trolled you are fucking over because of your personal guilty conscience. The Conclave is not the place for a guilty conscience.

A genuine person would not have persisted to fight when warned by an admin or another regional authority. Anyone who has actually held a position in feeder politics knows this. Just do adspum cleanup on our boards for a few weeks and THEN come talk to me about giving people a second chance.

You will see that the genuine people shine. They err, you warn them, and they profusely apologize and fix their ads. Just as a genuine member screws up, you warn them, they might get upset, they probably will apologize, and they will change. Those out there looking for trouble or those who do not give a damn about the region will not change, will not heed your warnings, and will deliberately seek opportunities to find weak links and beat away at them.

I am not saying you need to be jaded. Everyone deserves a fair chance. I am saying that your definition of a fair chance is impractical and damaging. The fair chance was in being warned. The subsequent violations of both Conclave, resolved by trail, and the Admin rules is the final verdict. We cannot keep allowing trolls to hurt our members because we feel bad for them. We have injured this community already because of it....do you want to keep hurting it?

I will admit that I do agree we could have handled Kurd's initial trial much better. But I do not feel bad for the decision and I will stand by it. Kurd needed to be banned. End of story. AS needed to be banned. End of story.

I hate to say it, but do you guys really want to choose trolls over your own members? Let AS back and I'm gone for damn good. The only reason I came back is because my beloved RP'ers begged me to come back and RP with them. Keep discussing (I am using this choice word not as a personal offense but figure of speech) idiotic ideas like rights for trolls and I will whip you all the finger and be gone for good.

Again, put yourself in the receiving end of that abuse, work in areas where trolling is high, and THEN we will have this discussion. My best advise is just that....consider the negative repercussions of what you are actually suggesting and the reality of trolling. None of this idealistic best case hopefully scenario that one in maybe ten thousand NS'ers is going to benefit from. Again, for the sloping odds that exist on this, I'll take my chance with accidentally banning the genuine member if it keeps a troll out. But that is just me....I've witnessed the destruction they bring on large scales and personal scales. This community is too important to me than the rights of a single disruptive and abusive player.

Official Approval by Terasu

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MASTER OF PSYCHOSODOMY

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Terasu: "Well done DFD you imploded the universe"

:lol:


;)

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drakkengard
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DFD, your last post wasn´t an advice. It was an ultimatum.

I hope this post was a moment of fury rather than your beliefs.

Because i believe you´d agree that a region which claims to uphold "Liberty! Fraternity! Equality!" shouldn´t bow to anyone´s demands, regardless of how cherished that one is to us.

I accepted this office because i believe this region holds my judgment in high regard. But if you really believe that one who wasn´t trolled has no right to judge a troll, then you don´t see me as worthy of this office. I don´t also dont want to believe this is how the region as a whole think, but if it is, then i should resign.

And temporary ban is not naivetry, guilty conscience or choosing trolls over our own members. Its just a lesser penalty than permanent ban. Much like in real life a criminal don´t get death penalty or prison for life over any offense.

However, i do admit DFD is more experienced than me in NS, and given the arguments she brought (along with the ultimatum), it seems that trolling deserves permanent ban as punishment.

But we cannot do this because DFD said "my way or the highway". We should halt this trial, decide as a conclave if this is the suitable punishment for any troll, not only A-S, and then we return here to pass a democratic sentence.

p.s.: If being annoyed by telegram counts as trolling then a-s is giving me a taste... However i stand for what i said above.
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Barb
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Unfortunately, this is not a trial to determine what is our public policy generally towards being a public nuisance. It is the trial of Anur-Sanur. Now that the charge has been decided, the nation cannot be tried again. The nations that were demonstrated to have been called cowards, acting illegally, causing the nation injury, paranoid, slanderers, and holding personal grudges by Anur-Sanur also have a right to this matter being resolved one way or the other.

All Arbiters who spoke in trial have spoken during sentencing and the consensus is for a permanent ban, so Conclave will vote on that first. If that votes fails, Viceroy will propose a debate and vote on temporary ban.

Conclave has already ruled that:
Anur-Sanur has committed acts that constitute deliberately being a public nuisance in violation of Article F, Section 1 of Concordat.

The matter before Conclave is:
Consistent with Concordat Article F, Section 7, "Each nation may enter and leave the region freely, unless that nation is convicted of a crime by the Conclave," and that no additional warning is merited in this instance, Anur-Sanur is banished permanently from The East Pacific.

A majority of AYE / YES votes approves the matter. A majority of NAY / NO votes dismisses the matter and calls for a second debate and vote to impose a temporary ban instead.

Please vote. Voting ends in 72 hours or when all Arbiters have voted, which ever comes first. Viceroy is recused from voting.
Barb
Arbiter Barbara Manatee
Ulthar Ambassador to The East Pacific
Convicted Thief of the Crown of the Vizier

Keep TEP beautiful!

The practice of peace and reconciliation is one of the most vital and artistic of human actions. - Thich Nhat Hanh
Quote:
 
Todd McCloud: don't feed the trolls
Quote:
 
Vulshain: you don't want the disco-roller skating bots to come
Quote:
 
Kurogasa: honest to Quetzalcoatl
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Chancellor Shaw
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Bill Stickers is Innocent

AYE.
Thank you for your time
Chancellor Shaw, of the Free Land of Moafin
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drakkengard
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Nay.
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Gulliver
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Aye.
<INSERT SOMETHING WITTY HERE>
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Kurogasa
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Even if I'm considered too weak to be an arbiter my job as an arbiter is to remain impartial and take actions based on the evidence I'm given, every party involved had their chance to post additional evidence but no one did...

Based on the evidence given, my vote is: NAY.
I don't want to conquer the world, I want the people to put me as their leader for themselves (or I will have to conquer it, anyways it will be mine soon).

"What is a rebel? A man who says no" -Albert Camus-

"The greatest joy a man can know is to conquer his enemies and drive them before him. To ride their horses and take away their possessions. To see the faces of those who were dear to them bedewed with tears, and to clasp their wives and daughters in his arms." -Genghis Khan-
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Der Fuhrer Dyszel
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At the request of AS, I withheld my evidence in fear of being harassed again.

Aye.

Official Approval by Terasu

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MASTER OF PSYCHOSODOMY

You can't ignore my girth.


Terasu: "Well done DFD you imploded the universe"

:lol:


;)

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Barb
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Sergeant Hobo 678
The vote has ended. The AYES have it.

Anur-Sanur is banned for The East Pacific.
Barb
Arbiter Barbara Manatee
Ulthar Ambassador to The East Pacific
Convicted Thief of the Crown of the Vizier

Keep TEP beautiful!

The practice of peace and reconciliation is one of the most vital and artistic of human actions. - Thich Nhat Hanh
Quote:
 
Todd McCloud: don't feed the trolls
Quote:
 
Vulshain: you don't want the disco-roller skating bots to come
Quote:
 
Kurogasa: honest to Quetzalcoatl
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
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