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Term Limits Discussion; The Sequel
Topic Started: Nov 20 2010, 03:18:13 PM (1,646 Views)
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1. I was in a rush to get caught up on duties here while heading out the door to work. I assumed this was a Magisterium term limit debate. I was wrong.
-- My thoughts on the issue of Delegate term limits (DTL) is that we should not have them. I feel the region has enough personality and integrity to change when it needs to. Todd was TEP when it needed him to be. Then it needed DFD. Now it needs Al. While I do not support DTL, I do believe past delegates should not continuously seek the position. They played their role, now it is time to move on to other venues of service.

2. I feel the 'old guard question' I posted in RNH's nomination thread is stirring up some ill feelings here. I do not apologize for asking it- it needed to be brought into consideration. I urge all those that take up the debate to do so without ego. We cannot pound away at this with a unshakable ideal and expect the preconception/misconception of the old guard to dissipate.

3. I like hot chocolate.


[edit- forgot a key word in point 1 that radically changed it's meaning]
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Free Pacific States
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While I continue to oppose the proposal, let me recommend the amendment of the actual legislation to read as follows.

Quote:
 
The Magisterium of the East Pacific, recognizing the benefits to the East Pacific provided by frequent changes in executive leadership, does hereby propose the following amendment to the Concordat of the East Pacific, which shall be enacted upon its ratification by 3/4 of voting citizens in a referendum administered by the Conclave:

Quote:
 
Section 1) There shall be created a ninth section of Article A of the Concordat of the East Pacific.

Section 2) The new section of the Concordat created by Section 1 of this Amendment shall read as follows: "No individual may be elected as delegate more than twice consecutively."
The Federated Alliance of Free Pacific States | Lyon Republic | Republic of Xiopothos | East Pacific Treaty Organization
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Kangarawa
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Topid
Nov 20 2010, 10:38 PM
Okay, the topic of delegate term limits, looking at the total magisterium:

East Malyasia: Supported limiting to three consecutive
Free Pacific States: Opposes limits
SCKnightVulshain: has not posted
Topid: Supports a ban on consecutive terms
British Grand Pacific: Did not state an opinion
Kangarawa: Did not state an opinion
Todd McCloud: Supports ban on consecutive terms
(Is this correct?)

If this is the case, in the spirit of compromise to leave the most magisters satisfied, it seems to me the best case scenario is a limit of two consecutive terms for the delegacy.

(And I'd like to take the time to point out that I'm editing the actual text of the proposed amendment into the first post, but, I don't want to give the impression I want  a vote soon, we still have a lot to discuss, and I'm not going to write in the magister and/or provost term limits until we discuss it more.)

Kangarawa
 
As for term limits:

I'd like to see a single term for the delegate with no restriction on total cumulative terms. Six months is a long time in NS, time enough for one learn and achieve what one hopes to.

Using the same rationale, I'd like to see no more than two consecutive terms for Provost, although I don't have the same strength of feeling for this one.

What I've seen since I "rejoined" in May are two elections for Magister where there were very few candidates. Last term's Magisters disappeared for the most part. If one wants to be consistent, we could consider two consecutive terms here as well but truthfully, with the Magisterium, I would hope that most people vote for those who are active. If someone wants to call that a "pretend" government, so be it, but I disagree. I have no problem with not listing a term limit for Magisters.



I am now, however, merely expressing my opinion as a Citizen.
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Barb
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My :2c: .

I don't have a dog in this hunt with regard to delegate. I only point out that assuming the delegacy immediately and significantly reduces the delegate's NS influence within the region, therefore their ability to banject. That's the ability to banject bad guys and good guys alike: the influence sword cuts both ways.

The "no consecutive terms thing" or "no more than 2 terms in a row thing" would likely be consistent with Concordat depending on how they were worded. As Concordat is silent on term limits, a law to that effect would be appropriate and expedient.

As for Provost, I worry that term limits might not stand in a legal challenge. That position is not elected by citizens. Placing a prior restriction on the members of a branch of government from electing or replacing a leader seems dubious.

And impractical.

Term limits on Provost might be deemed hobbling that branch of government from functioning and restricting elected Magisters from choosing their leader. Limiting or expanding the power of any branch of TEP government while in office might be a more complex matter.

I offer this in hope of having as few challenges of your legislation as possible - as in none if we can avoid it.
Barb
Arbiter Barbara Manatee
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Convicted Thief of the Crown of the Vizier

Keep TEP beautiful!

The practice of peace and reconciliation is one of the most vital and artistic of human actions. - Thich Nhat Hanh
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SCKnightVulshain
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ultharambassadorbarbara
Nov 21 2010, 12:48 PM
My :2c: .

I don't have a dog in this hunt with regard to delegate. I only point out that assuming the delegacy immediately and significantly reduces the delegate's NS influence within the region, therefore their ability to banject. That's the ability to banject bad guys and good guys alike: the influence sword cuts both ways.

The "no consecutive terms thing" or "no more than 2 terms in a row thing" would likely be consistent with Concordat depending on how they were worded. As Concordat is silent on term limits, a law to that effect would be appropriate and expedient.

As for Provost, I worry that term limits might not stand in a legal challenge. That position is not elected by citizens. Placing a prior restriction on the members of a branch of government from electing or replacing a leader seems dubious.

And impractical.

Term limits on Provost might be deemed hobbling that branch of government from functioning and restricting elected Magisters from choosing their leader. Limiting or expanding the power of any branch of TEP government while in office might be a more complex matter.

I offer this in hope of having as few challenges of your legislation as possible - as in none if we can avoid it.

After going back and reviewing the term limits proposal a few times, I'm going to have to retract my earlier statements.

I'm still for a limit on consecutive terms, but to a point. I propose that the delegete be allowed to run consecutive terms, but only up to three times in a row. However, this does not mean that delegete can't run again in the future. I propose say a period of five or four months after their third term should be considered. After that waiting period is over, they can run again for another three terms if they so desire.
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ultharambassadorbarbara
Nov 21 2010, 09:48 AM
I don't have a dog in this hunt with regard to delegate. I only point out that assuming the delegacy immediately and significantly reduces the delegate's NS influence within the region, therefore their ability to banject. That's the ability to banject bad guys and good guys alike: the influence sword cuts both ways.

My understanding is the Viziers defend TEP against "bad guy influence" and provide basis for provisional gov't should the delegacy lack strength.
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Nalt
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ultharambassadorbarbara
Nov 21 2010, 11:48 AM
My :2c: .

I don't have a dog in this hunt with regard to delegate.  I only point out that assuming the delegacy immediately and significantly reduces the delegate's NS influence within the region, therefore their ability to banject.  That's the ability to banject bad guys and good guys alike: the influence sword cuts both ways.

The "no consecutive terms thing" or "no more than 2 terms in a row thing" would likely be consistent with Concordat depending on how they were worded.  As Concordat is silent on term limits, a law to that effect would be appropriate and expedient. 

As for Provost, I worry that term limits might not stand in a legal challenge.  That position is not elected by citizens.  Placing a prior restriction on the members of a branch of government from electing or replacing a leader seems dubious.

And impractical. 

Term limits on Provost might be deemed hobbling that branch of government from functioning and restricting elected Magisters from choosing their leader.  Limiting or expanding the power of any branch of TEP government while in office might be a more complex matter.

I offer this in hope of having as few challenges of your legislation as possible - as in none if we can avoid it.

How could an Amendment to the Concordat be challenged as inconsistent to the Concordat? It IS the Concordat, one couldn't rule the constitution unconstitutional. :blink: And Barb, are you saying if we address delegate term Limits alone we do not need to do so as an amendment, it could be a regular law?

@SCK, if we move it to limiting to three consecutive terms I'll vote against it. At that point the law is just useless as 18 months is so incredibly long. (Almost as long as my total time in NS.) At that point, it doesn't achieve any of the purposes listed, change would not be forced often, and after 540 days of one delegate, all the problems we want to prevent would occur. We'd just be talking about preventing a problem while not actually doing anything to fix it.
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Barb
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Topid
Nov 21 2010, 11:36 PM
Quote:
 
How could an Amendment to the Concordat be challenged as inconsistent to the Concordat? It IS the Concordat, one couldn't rule the constitution unconstitutional.  :blink: And Barb, are you saying if we address delegate term Limits alone we do not need to do so as an amendment, it could be a regular law?

@SCK, if we move it to limiting to three consecutive terms I'll vote against it. At that point the law is just useless as 18 months is so incredibly long. (Almost as long as my total time in NS.) At that point, it doesn't achieve any of the purposes listed, change would not be forced often, and after 540 days of one delegate, all the problems we want to prevent would occur. We'd just be talking about preventing a problem while not actually doing anything to fix it.

I simply suggested:
"As Concordat is silent on term limits, a law to that effect would be appropriate and expedient."

Amending Concordat requires a vote by the citizens, which is time consuming and unnecessary in this case. So the answer is yes. Delegate term limit could be a law.

I also suggested that putting a term limit on Provost is establishing a prior restrain on future elected officials from freely choosing - or replacing - who they want to lead them. Put simply, making them less powerful by restricting their choice of leader.

Concordat Article B, Section 3 currently excludes no Magister from running for Provost. I don't understand why that's a problem or why it needs to be fixed. The reason it's different than Delegate is that the Magisterium has already been elected before a Provost is chosen. In a tiny Magisterium, if a Provost quits and another Magister is ineligible due to term limit and another just doesn't want the responsibility - that's a recipe for gridlock.


Barb
Arbiter Barbara Manatee
Ulthar Ambassador to The East Pacific
Convicted Thief of the Crown of the Vizier

Keep TEP beautiful!

The practice of peace and reconciliation is one of the most vital and artistic of human actions. - Thich Nhat Hanh
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Todd McCloud: don't feed the trolls
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Vulshain: you don't want the disco-roller skating bots to come
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Free Pacific States
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Number One Drone
This is an institutional change not just an act of government. If we're going to change the very way the government operates in a fundamental manner, it ought to be via concordat amendment.
The Federated Alliance of Free Pacific States | Lyon Republic | Republic of Xiopothos | East Pacific Treaty Organization
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Nalt
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If it is consistent with the concordat I don't see the point in drawing the process out any further than needed. I'll write it as a regular law, and motion for a vote after some discussion.
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Nalt
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Well, we fizzled out rather early this term. :/ Oh well...

I motion for a vote on the following proposal:

Quote:
 
Recognizing the benefits of frequent changes in leadership, the magisterium of the East Pacific hereby places the following limits on the delegate:

1) No person may be elected to the delegacy for more than two consecutive terms.
2) There shall be no limit on total terms.
3) This law shall not apply to terms began prior to its passing.


3 added to prevent this from applying to Al since he took office before this became law.
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Can't worry about activity during a major US holiday. Some of us need our turkey and football!
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Nalt
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DO NOT WANT!!!!!!
It's still thanksgiving? :blink:
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Free Pacific States
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Number One Drone
While I remain in opposition to the proposal, especially as a bill instead of a Concordat amendment, I feel a couple amendments to this proposal are in order to ensure legal enforceability.

First, replacing "places the following restrictions" with "enacts as follows," to keep with the precedent of past legislation. Second, rephrasing point one to remove the necessity of point two, and make clear that multiple non-consecutive terms are allowed. Third, not including service as "Acting Delegate" under the consecutive terms rule, except if someone acts as delegate for three or more months. Fourth, adding an enactment clause.

Let me know what you think, Topid.

Quote:
 
Recognizing the benefits of frequent changes in leadership, the Magisterium of the East Pacific enacts as follows:

1. No person shall serve as Delegate for three consecutive terms.
2. For the purposes of Section 1 of this act, service as Acting Delegate pursuant to Section 12 of Article B of the Concordat does not qualify as service as Delegate, except if that service exceeds three months in duration.
3. This act shall not apply to the person serving as Delegate at the time of the enactment of this act.
4. This bill shall be enacted upon its signature by the Delegate or upon the vote of the Magisterium to override the veto of this bill by the Delegate.
The Federated Alliance of Free Pacific States | Lyon Republic | Republic of Xiopothos | East Pacific Treaty Organization
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Nalt
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Okay if that is more traditional.
I like laws to make sense the first time their read, and your number 2 is worded odd...

Quote:
 
Recognizing the benefits of frequent changes in leadership, the Magisterium of the East Pacific enacts as follows:

1. No person shall be elected Delegate for three consecutive terms.
2. This act shall not apply to the person serving as Delegate at the time of the enactment of this act.
3. This bill shall be enacted upon its signature by the Delegate or upon the vote of the Magisterium to override the veto of this bill by the Delegate.


That works just as well does it not? By changing 'serve as' to 'be elected' we are saying the exact thing your second section said much more simply, no?
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Free Pacific States
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Number One Drone
Using the phrase "elected as" instead of "serve as" does eliminate the need for my section 2, yes, and still keeps the legislation enforceable. Good thinking, Topid. I've no more technical objections -- the revised version is technically fine, though I still oppose it in principle.
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Nalt
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DO NOT WANT!!!!!!
Then I cancel my original motion and motion for a vote on the following proposal:
Quote:
 
Recognizing the benefits of frequent changes in leadership, the Magisterium of the East Pacific enacts as follows:

1. No person shall be elected Delegate for three consecutive terms.
2. This act shall not apply to the person serving as Delegate at the time of the enactment of this act.
3. This bill shall be enacted upon its signature by the Delegate or upon the vote of the Magisterium to override the veto of this bill by the Delegate.
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Todd McCloud
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Planet Telox
Did we decide on two consecutive terms, or three? I can't remember. I'm partial to the two consecutive terms, in all honesty.

And we're not dead - it's a holiday weekend. We're not going to be active every day in this Magisterium - that's just the way it is. But we're going to be active throughout the three month period! :fish:
"Your uniform doesn't seem to fit. You're much too alive in it."

"You must be the change you want to see in the world" - Gandhi
"The worst prison would be a closed heart." - Pope John Paul II
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Free Pacific States
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Number One Drone
We decided on a two term limit -- which the current law enforces. It just does so in the positive sense -- that is to say, it says "you cannot serve three consecutive terms," instead of saying 'you cannot serve more than two consecutive terms."

Do I hear a second on the motion to vote?
The Federated Alliance of Free Pacific States | Lyon Republic | Republic of Xiopothos | East Pacific Treaty Organization
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Nalt
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We decided on two (or rather I thought that looked more likely to pass). The proposal I motioned for a vote on allows two consecutive terms but disallows a third.
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Free Pacific States
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Number One Drone
There doesn't seem to be any more real debate -- I do have one more technical issue. Right now, the bill lacks a title. Topid, I propose amending to read as follows. If you're good with the amendment, accept it and motion to vote, and I'll second it, and we can get this done!

Quote:
 
Recognizing the benefits of frequent changes in leadership, the Magisterium of the East Pacific enacts as follows:

1. This act shall be known and cited as the "Term Limits Act".
2. No person shall be elected Delegate for three consecutive terms.
3. This act shall not apply to the person serving as Delegate at the time of the enactment of this act.
4. This bill shall be enacted upon its signature by the Delegate or upon the vote of the Magisterium to override the veto of this bill by the Delegate.
The Federated Alliance of Free Pacific States | Lyon Republic | Republic of Xiopothos | East Pacific Treaty Organization
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Nalt
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I cancel my earlier motion and motion for a vote on the following text:
Quote:
 
Recognizing the benefits of frequent changes in leadership, the Magisterium of the East Pacific enacts as follows:

1. This act shall be known and cited as the "Term Limits Act".
2. No person shall be elected Delegate for three consecutive terms.
3. This act shall not apply to the person serving as Delegate at the time of the enactment of this act.
4. This bill shall be enacted upon its signature by the Delegate or upon the vote of the Magisterium to override the veto of this bill by the Delegate.


Thank you FPS. And I appreciate your get-it-finished mindset. We need more of that. : :tu:
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Free Pacific States
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Number One Drone
I recognize the motion, second the motion, recognize the second, and hereby convene voting. Voting shall last for 72 hours, concluding at 7PM East Pacific Standard Time (or 2PM North American Eastern Standard Time) on Saturday, December 4 of the Gregorian calendar (or Thul-Hijjah 28, 1431 A.H on the Islamic Calendar).
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Nalt
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DO NOT WANT!!!!!!
For.
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Todd McCloud
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IRL events have kept me from being able to vote within the allotted time. I recognize voting ended nearly 12 hours ago. I would like the record to reflect that I do, in fact, support the motion presented by Topid.
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Free Pacific States
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Number One Drone
In my haste to preside over the voting, I did not myself vote, although since I oppose the measure, my non-vote has the same effect as my vote.

The time for voting having expired, the vote is 3-0-3. Failing to receive the support of a majority of Magisters, the bill fails.
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