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Problematic Wording
Topic Started: Dec 5 2010, 04:59:26 AM (1,692 Views)
Nalt
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DO NOT WANT!!!!!!
Well, that is to say, the wording of one of our past laws makes a problem in the design of our government more confusing.

As I said when I was elected, the 'majority of the magisterium' part of the Concordat is nuts. We have 6 magisters. We need four to vote for something for it to pass. If three magisters can not vote the bill fails no matter what. Recently my Term Limit bill got 3 votes for. Shortly after voting ended another magister said he would have voted for had he been online.

The reason I don't like the system is because it allows inactivity to totally shut the Magisterium down, and because failing to vote has the same effect as not voting at all. So someone can just not vote to hide that they oppose something. (Which I'm not saying happened here because every magister stated their opinion even if he or she didn't vote, it just opens the door for that to happen.)

Anyway so we have 3/6 Magisters voting for the term limit bill. Which means we fall back to the "Tied votes in the magisterium" ... Or do we?

Quote:
 

In the event that a law has equal votes for and against in the Magisterium, the proposal shall be brought to a referendum for all citizens to vote. The referendum shall decide whether or not the proposal passes. In the event that the citizens' votes for and against are again equal, the deciding vote will be given to the Conclave.

Emphasis added. We do not have an equal number of votes for and against. We had no votes against and three for.

We either need to fix the Concordat or the tied votes in the Magisterium law.
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I see a lack of vote being equivalent to abstinence. You gained 3 votes in favor and no descent.
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Nalt
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That's what I would like too but last term we ran into this ruling which stated we needed to get a majority of the Magisterium to vote for something, not the majority of magisters voting. So, we got 3 out of 6 magisters which is not a majority, but also not really a tie.
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Free Pacific States
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Number One Drone
The Magisterium needs to develop better policies on tie votes and non-majority votes because the current policies cause unnecessary hardship. There is no reason for a public referendum on a perfect tie and there is no reason for legislation to fail because the key vote in favor came after time. The current tie policies are terrible.

The Magisterium needs not set its policies on these matters through law, though, because the Magisterium can set its own rules. The Magisterium ought to repeal the Tie Vote Act and amend the Standing Orders to fail any legislation that has equal support and opposition. And the Magisterium ought to change the Standing Orders, so that voting time is unlimited, and merely ends when a super-majority (2/3 or 3/4) of Magisters have voted. To accomplish this, the Magisterium must pass a bill and a resolution, both of which I am willing to write.

But before we go that far, let me ask: what does everyone else think we should do?
The Federated Alliance of Free Pacific States | Lyon Republic | Republic of Xiopothos | East Pacific Treaty Organization
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Nalt
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DO NOT WANT!!!!!!
I think we should amend the concordat to add the 'of those voting' line we tried to use in the SO.
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Free Pacific States
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Number One Drone
To be honest, I favor that as well. But passing a Concordat amendment takes a lot of time, so my suggestion is to repeal the tie-votes and amend the SO immediately, and then undertake what will surely be the long amendment process once we've got ourselves setup to operate.
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Todd McCloud
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Planet Telox
I see the tied vote law has been brought into question. Well, it's a bit odd to me. Since when does a tied vote equal a majority vote? It doesn't, for our Concordat explicitly states (from Article B):
Quote:
 
Section 4) The Magisterium shall pass laws by majority vote.

These two laws blatantly contradict each other. Furthermore, deciding on the passage / failure of a law is not something the non-Magister citizens should be forced to look at. It's not their job. That's like saying "well, we can't figure it out, even though you voted us in here to do such a job, so you guys fix our problem." Just saying what it sounds like, even though people don't intend for it to come off that way. So in a roundabout way, whatever changes we make to this voting procedure, if at all, I recommend it include the removal of this "tied vote" law.
"Your uniform doesn't seem to fit. You're much too alive in it."

"You must be the change you want to see in the world" - Gandhi
"The worst prison would be a closed heart." - Pope John Paul II
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Nalt
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If we are already considering one amendment to the conclave I would think it would be smart to pass the second at the same time. If not Barb will have to organise two referendums (assuming both make it out of Magisterium) as opposed to holding the votes at the same time.

But if we need to take more time I guess we can, just trying to make it easier on Barb... :P
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Todd McCloud
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Planet Telox
Free Pacific States
Dec 5 2010, 02:41 PM
To be honest, I favor that as well. But passing a Concordat amendment takes a lot of time, so my suggestion is to repeal the tie-votes and amend the SO immediately, and then undertake what will surely be the long amendment process once we've got ourselves setup to operate.

We can't do this. We have to stay congruent with the wording of the Concordat with, based on the interpretation mentioned by the Viceroy, would be a violation of the Concordat. Doing that reeks of trying to exploit a loophole, of which there is none.

The suggestions mentioned in that thread would be a better alternative, in my opinion. The fact that only three people voted in a grand total of six magisters is unfortunate, but it's what we have to work with.
"Your uniform doesn't seem to fit. You're much too alive in it."

"You must be the change you want to see in the world" - Gandhi
"The worst prison would be a closed heart." - Pope John Paul II
Vekaiyu's Wiki Page | Ikrisia Levinile's Wiki Page | Listonia's Wiki Page
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Nalt
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DO NOT WANT!!!!!!
I understood FPS to mean repeal the Tied votes law and change the SO to say that votes with 50% or less fail to be sure we are compliant with the Concordat, not changing the SO back to "of those voting" because we were defeated by the conclave once before.
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Free Pacific States
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Number One Drone
Topid is correct. I am suggesting we repeal the Tied Votes law, given that its just terrible policy and potentially in violation of the Concordat, and amend the SOC so that tied bills fail. I'm also suggesting we amend the SOC so that voting time is automatically extended until a super-majority of Magisters vote, so that we don't have situations like what happened with the term limits act.

Separately from all this, a Concordat amendment is something that ought to be debated, but that debate is going to be long and arduous, and I think we shouldn't leave Magisterial procedure hanging in the balance.
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Todd McCloud
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Planet Telox
Free Pacific States
Dec 5 2010, 08:35 PM
Topid is correct. I am suggesting we repeal the Tied Votes law, given that its just terrible policy and potentially in violation of the Concordat, and amend the SOC so that tied bills fail. I'm also suggesting we amend the SOC so that voting time is automatically extended until a super-majority of Magisters vote, so that we don't have situations like what happened with the term limits act.

Separately from all this, a Concordat amendment is something that ought to be debated, but that debate is going to be long and arduous, and I think we shouldn't leave Magisterial procedure hanging in the balance.

Alright, yeah that would be much more feasible. Though... don't we have to do the same process to repeal that law that we followed to make it a law in the first place?

As long as we are not violating the Concordat or the rulings regarding it, I am fine with it
"Your uniform doesn't seem to fit. You're much too alive in it."

"You must be the change you want to see in the world" - Gandhi
"The worst prison would be a closed heart." - Pope John Paul II
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Nalt
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Do we even technically have to repeal it? It seems to me like we have a lot of votes to make and the Conclave could use something to do. Just a thought.
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Free Pacific States
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Number One Drone
We've got a lot to do, certainly. But the Conclave did not repeal the act upon its passage and I do not feel it proper for the Magisterium to ask the Conclave to accomplish things on its behalf.

Besides, while we've got a lot to do, we've got another couple months on our term. I'm pretty sure we've got enough time. :)
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Free Pacific States
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Number One Drone
To that end, I do hereby propose...the "Tie Votes Repeal Act."

Quote:
 
The Magisterium of the East Pacific, recognizing the inefficient nature of standing law regarding tie votes in the Magisterium and also realizing that the standing law regarding tie votes may violate the Concordat, enacts as follows:

1. The Concordat of the East Pacific is hereby repealed.

2. This bill shall be enacted upon its signature by the Delegate or upon the vote of a super-majority of the Magisterium to override the veto of the Delegate.
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Allegheny
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Partly Cloudy
1. The Concordat of the East Pacific is hereby repealed.

wut?
Posted Image

There was a hole here. It's gone now.
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Todd McCloud
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Planet Telox
Allegheny
Dec 9 2010, 02:45 PM
1. The Concordat of the East Pacific is hereby repealed.

wut?

Seconded. I think you mean the Tied Vote Act? :blink:
"Your uniform doesn't seem to fit. You're much too alive in it."

"You must be the change you want to see in the world" - Gandhi
"The worst prison would be a closed heart." - Pope John Paul II
Vekaiyu's Wiki Page | Ikrisia Levinile's Wiki Page | Listonia's Wiki Page
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Free Pacific States
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Number One Drone
...yeeeah, I need more sleep.

Quote:
 
The Magisterium of the East Pacific, recognizing the inefficient nature of standing law regarding tie votes in the Magisterium and also realizing that the standing law regarding tie votes may violate the Concordat, enacts as follows:

1. The standing legislation regarding Tie Votes, passed as Bill MA-1 of the 2nd Assembly, is hereby repealed.

2. This bill shall be enacted upon its signature by the Delegate or upon the vote of 3/4 of the Magisterium to override the veto of the Delegate.
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Deleted User
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ITT tyranny
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Todd McCloud
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Planet Telox
Free Pacific States
Dec 9 2010, 04:25 PM
...yeeeah, I need more sleep.

Quote:
 
The Magisterium of the East Pacific, recognizing the inefficient nature of standing law regarding tie votes in the Magisterium and also realizing that the standing law regarding tie votes may violate the Concordat, enacts as follows:

1. The standing legislation regarding Tie Votes, passed as Bill MA-1 of the 2nd Assembly, is hereby repealed.

2. This bill shall be enacted upon its signature by the Delegate or upon the vote of a super-majority of the Magisterium to override the veto of the Delegate.

Define super-majority, as it is used above.
"Your uniform doesn't seem to fit. You're much too alive in it."

"You must be the change you want to see in the world" - Gandhi
"The worst prison would be a closed heart." - Pope John Paul II
Vekaiyu's Wiki Page | Ikrisia Levinile's Wiki Page | Listonia's Wiki Page
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Deleted User
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Super majority could be tricky. In our current 6-man group that would mean 5 out of 6 magisters. What happens when we're down to only 3 in any election cycle?
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Free Pacific States
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Number One Drone
The Concordat requires a 3/4 super-majority to vote to overrule, so, that would be the required. I've edited the bill to reflect that.
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Free Pacific States
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Number One Drone
So...if there's no more thoughts on this, may I ask for a motion to vote?
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Nalt
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DO NOT WANT!!!!!!
I motion for a vote.
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Todd McCloud
Dec 15 2010, 03:44 PM
Free Pacific States
Dec 9 2010, 04:25 PM
...yeeeah, I need more sleep.

Quote:
 
The Magisterium of the East Pacific, recognizing the inefficient nature of standing law regarding tie votes in the Magisterium and also realizing that the standing law regarding tie votes may violate the Concordat, enacts as follows:

1. The standing legislation regarding Tie Votes, passed as Bill MA-1 of the 2nd Assembly, is hereby repealed.

2. This bill shall be enacted upon its signature by the Delegate or upon the vote of a super-majority of the Magisterium to override the veto of the Delegate.

Define super-majority, as it is used above.

I request the following change of language for the sake of clarification:

Quote:
 
2. This bill shall be enacted upon its signature by the Delegate or upon the vote of a super-majority of the Magisterium to override the veto of the Delegate per Article B Section 6 of the Concordat.
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Free Pacific States
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Number One Drone
I'm happy to see a bit of focus on technicalities from someone besides myself for once. :)

The amendment is accepted as friendly. The bill now reads as follows:

Quote:
 
The Magisterium of the East Pacific, recognizing the inefficient nature of standing law regarding tie votes in the Magisterium and also realizing that the standing law regarding tie votes may violate the Concordat, enacts as follows:

1. The standing legislation regarding Tie Votes, passed as Bill MA-1 of the 2nd Assembly, is hereby repealed.

2. This bill shall be enacted upon its signature by the Delegate or upon the vote of a super-majority of the Magisterium to override the veto of the Delegate per Article B Section 6 of the Concordat.


I'll need a new motion to vote since the bill has been amended. Anyone?
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Nalt
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DO NOT WANT!!!!!!
I motion for a vote. :rolleyes:
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Free Pacific States
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Number One Drone
I recognize the motion. Since I proposed the bill, I'd rather not second it. Do I hear a second?
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I second the motion to vote.
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Free Pacific States
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Number One Drone
Motion recognized. We'll now vote for 72 hours on the proposed bill.

AYE
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