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Modern Pacific Alliance Treaty
Topic Started: Aug 22 2011, 06:51:56 PM (4,027 Views)
Todd McCloud
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This was given to me by A Mean Old Man (from The Pacific), who worked with a few other nations. I was asked to provide some insight / input, and I think some of it is located in this document.

Quote:
 
Any government of The Pacific, of The North Pacific, of The South Pacific, of The East Pacific, of The West Pacific, of Lazarus, or of The Rejected Realms which has ratified this Treaty likewise agrees to comply with the Values of this Alliance, agrees to send the required number of representatives to represent their region in this Alliance's official headquarters, and agrees to comply with the terms of this Treaty.

Any member region of The Modern Pacific Alliance will pledge no greater allegiance to any region, alliance, or organization (omitting those established and/or controlled by their own regional government) that is not a member of this alliance.

No government of any Modern Pacific Alliance member region which has ratified this Treaty will willingly allow itself to be replaced by any governmental body which originates in any regions foreign to the Pacifics, to Lazarus, or to The Rejected Realms or to be usurped for the purposes of entities foreign to the regions previously listed. Likewise, no government of any Modern Pacific Alliance member region will willingly allow its region to be exploited by any forces foreign to the MPA through action such as:




  • the distribution of World Assembly member nations (and subsequently the damage of the loyalty of the players behind said nations to their original, Pacific region and of Pacific sovereignty itself) to foreign regions or organizations as if these nations were some sort of item meant for barter or to be used as currency,



  • and the entrance of any Alliance-bound delegate’s voting power into any kind of World Assembly voting bloc foreign to the Pacifics and foreign to the MPA,



UNLESS any actions that would fall under the above classifications are brought before and subsequently approved by a simple majority vote of the MPA assembly.

The government of each region that ratifies the treaty of the Modern Pacific Alliance must do its best to accommodate the ideas and decisions of the assembly (in which their own representatives will participate) which pertain to aspects of the region over which said government reigns.

All those that would act out in opposition of the governments of each member region of the Modern Pacific Alliance are to be deemed "delinquents" and should be listed and described before the assembly in the Modern Pacific Alliance's headquarters, however any member region is at liberty to withhold any individual cases that they believe unnecessary or sensitive.

On the occasion of an emergency situation in a member region of the MPA, the other member regions should attempt anything and everything within their power to end such a state of emergency and return the other member region to its former, stable, secure state.


Essentially, this appears to be an alliance to promote sovereignty in feeders in addition to unity and to protect said feeder regions in the event of an attack.

Since you all are the Magisterium and in charge of approving or denying treaties, I'll let you debate over it rather than me explain why I like or dislike this document. But I do have likes and dislikes, of course. Feel free to suggest changes to, and debate over this. I do read your debates and I must say this term in particular has shown much vigor and energy!
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Kelssek
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Quote:
 
The government of each region that ratifies the treaty of the Modern Pacific Alliance must do its best to accommodate the ideas and decisions of the assembly (in which their own representatives will participate) which pertain to aspects of the region over which said government reigns.


I have some concerns with this. It seems to suggest that we would be subject to decisions made by a supra-regional body. What areas would this assembly be deciding upon?
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Todd McCloud
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Kelssek
Aug 22 2011, 07:57 PM
Quote:
 
The government of each region that ratifies the treaty of the Modern Pacific Alliance must do its best to accommodate the ideas and decisions of the assembly (in which their own representatives will participate) which pertain to aspects of the region over which said government reigns.


I have some concerns with this. It seems to suggest that we would be subject to decisions made by a supra-regional body. What areas would this assembly be deciding upon?

My feeling is it will discuss when and if a feeder is in trouble or has violated a particular portion of that pact, but the treaty does not specifically state that.
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Stateless
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Quote:
 
On the occasion of an emergency situation in a member region of the MPA, the other member regions should attempt anything and everything within their power to end such a state of emergency and return the other member region to its former, stable, secure state
This, if ratified, will be extremely helpful in the event of an invasion
WhatWhatInTheButt
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Carondia
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I would perfer a defense treaty. But this Treaty might have some of it's clauses nullified by the Concordat. To me it seems to infer that this Alliance is a secondary Legislative Body and if I remember correctly the Magisterium is the SOLE Legislative Body of the East Pacific. A defense treaty: yes, a treaty in which there is a Pacific Wide Legislative Body: no.
Citizen of The East Pacific
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Erm, think of it as a United States similarity, We, the Pacifics, would be like the states, and the MPA would be like the federal government system, just... more scaled down, because each states (in the US) has it's own legislative body aswell... Something like that...
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Kelssek
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Actually, it sounds like it would probably be more like the EU member states, and the European Parliament. If it were like the United States federation, I can't see that being acceptable since it would imply giving up the region's autonomy/independence.

That it would be a parallel legislature is a moot point - it's not within the East Pacific. It would clearly be an external body, even if you were to count any council as a "legislature".

My real question is what impact it will have on our internal situation and governance, if any. If Todd would clarify what the understanding is here, it would be very helpful.
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Kelssek
Aug 22 2011, 11:12 PM
Actually, it sounds like it would probably be more like the EU member states, and the European Parliament. If it were like the United States federation, I can't see that being acceptable since it would imply giving up the region's autonomy/independence.

hehe, I didn't even think of the EU :P Are we gonna get a standardized currency?
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SCKnightVulshain
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Is wa
Aug 22 2011, 09:49 PM
I would perfer a defense treaty. But this Treaty might have some of it's clauses nullified by the Concordat. To me it seems to infer that this Alliance is a secondary Legislative Body and if I remember correctly the Magisterium is the SOLE Legislative Body of the East Pacific. A defense treaty: yes, a treaty in which there is a Pacific Wide Legislative Body: no.

I have to agree with Is Wa here. I'm worried that this may interfere with how things are done here.
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Todd McCloud
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I can foresee a few conflicts here, to be honest. For instance, I don't like the following:

Quote:
 

UNLESS any actions that would fall under the above classifications are brought before and subsequently approved by a simple majority vote of the MPA assembly.

The government of each region that ratifies the treaty of the Modern Pacific Alliance must do its best to accommodate the ideas and decisions of the assembly (in which their own representatives will participate) which pertain to aspects of the region over which said government reigns.

All those that would act out in opposition of the governments of each member region of the Modern Pacific Alliance are to be deemed "delinquents" and should be listed and described before the assembly in the Modern Pacific Alliance's headquarters, however any member region is at liberty to withhold any individual cases that they believe unnecessary or sensitive.

While I do agree with the treaty in that having another region or bloc control our WA votes is a no-go, we'd still need the approval of the alliance to do this. Which presents a conflict here, because it should be TEP's choice to do what it wants with its WA votes, even if I or one other person in the region is against us doing that with our WA votes. (I'd still be against it though ;) )

What applies in the first paragraph applies to the second. But I interpreted this as the organization recognizing governments, which can actually be useful. Had we had this in place during The Empire, for instance, member states would have not recognized the group as a government due to most of them being from userite (non-pacific) regions. But I don't know how effective that would've been, and it's not a free lunch either: If a few member regions don't happen to like someone in our government, it could be difficult-goings for us as well.

The last paragraph doesn't seem to do as much as it should. A government is unrecognized in a feeder, but they're labeled as 'delinquents'. It doesn't state that said regions must come to the aid of the region in trouble; on the contrary, they can also declare it unnecessary, unless I'm reading this wrong.

In short, this is a very Francoist (pro-feeder region or pro-pacific region) document. As it stands right now, having critically focused on this, I personally wouldn't pass it. But I also believe this can be changed to become an effective document, provided it doesn't interfere with our government or pose a problem to us. I am pro-feeder sovereignty and pro-feeder defense, though.
"Your uniform doesn't seem to fit. You're much too alive in it."

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SCKnightVulshain
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I noticed a lot of the same things Todd did. We should be careful as it could also be a way for one feeder region to control the others, kind of like an invasion. While, it's an unlikely scenario, it could happen. I'm much more in favor of a pro-feeder defense agreement than this here. I'm also a very strong supporter of a feeder region's sovereignty. I highly doubt that this MPA treaty respects ours or the other feeder regions' sovereignties.
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Carondia
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One note on Sovereignity is that other regions must have similar concerns and will respect each other's rights but we should not allow for such a risk. As long as there is an Assembly I will be voting AGAINST. ((No, I am not actually voting. Just stating how I would vote))
Citizen of The East Pacific
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A mean old man
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As the producer of this document and of the idea of the alliance itself, I have been cleared by the Provost to reply here with an explanation of the alliance's general function and of the functions of this document's wording.

I think some of the Magisters here are overcomplicating the purpose of this alliance. As Todd said, it is partially a security measure, but also a way of bringing the feeder regions closer together in discussion of their mutual issues which, when I designed it, was in the interest of increasing activity all-around and increasing the likelihood of the different feeders aiding each other when problems arise (and such is hardly a selfish interest, as TP generally has few problems).

Also, as Todd said, it officially recognizes feeder region governments, which many people from the outside criticize and claim are obsolete or do not represent the interests of the region. This document, in a sense, legitimizes our governments.

I believe I could best get my point across by describing each portion of the treaty and responding to a few particular posts in this thread.

Quote:
 
Any government of The Pacific, of The North Pacific, of The South Pacific, of The East Pacific, of The West Pacific, of Lazarus, or of The Rejected Realms which has ratified this Treaty likewise agrees to comply with the Values of this Alliance, agrees to send the required number of representatives to represent their region in this Alliance's official headquarters, and agrees to comply with the terms of this Treaty.


Self-explanatory, really. The "Values" establish the way that the separate assembly will be run, by the way, and I think those should also be displayed here for consideration.

Quote:
 
Any member region of The Modern Pacific Alliance will pledge no greater allegiance to any region, alliance, or organization (omitting those established and/or controlled by their own regional government) that is not a member of this alliance.


Also self-explanatory. Loyalty to your region and to your colleagues in the other feeders of the MPA is emphasized by this clause.

Quote:
 
No government of any Modern Pacific Alliance member region which has ratified this Treaty will willingly allow itself to be replaced by any governmental body which originates in any regions foreign to the Pacifics, to Lazarus, or to The Rejected Realms or to be usurped for the purposes of entities foreign to the regions previously listed. Likewise, no government of any Modern Pacific Alliance member region will willingly allow its region to be exploited by any forces foreign to the MPA through action such as:


Basically, no government that does not originate within the feeders must ever run a feeder, not must it ever allow itself to be taken over for foreign purposes.

Quote:
 
the distribution of World Assembly member nations (and subsequently the damage of the loyalty of the players behind said nations to their original, Pacific region and of Pacific sovereignty itself) to foreign regions or organizations as if these nations were some sort of item meant for barter or to be used as currency,


In essence: No feeder will surrender its WA nations to another region as a form of tribute (which rules out banning, as this clause could possibly be misinterpreted as a prevention of sending nations to The Rejected Realms). I couldn't possibly imagine TEP or any of the feeders which would likely be involved in the MPA ever doing this; it's mainly in here in case a government should ever become corrupt in the future so that they can be called out on it. Also, such activity would be a sign of a government that has been usurped by foreign entities.

Quote:
 
and the entrance of any Alliance-bound delegate’s voting power into any kind of World Assembly voting bloc foreign to the Pacifics and foreign to the MPA,


Yes, to those who responded as such to this, this is a limitation. However, as I've seen expressed in this thread, the residents of TEP seem to have no interest in joining any such thing and I'd expect their Magisterium to approve a document refusing TEP's involvement in any WA bloc far more than I'd expect it to approve a document enlisting it in one. It's more of a limitation that prevents the involved regions from placing limitations on themselves. Ironic, but, in a sense, enforces the region's sovereignty.

Quote:
 
UNLESS any actions that would fall under the above classifications are brought before and subsequently approved by a simple majority vote of the MPA assembly.


Remember, the MPA assembly includes two nations put forth by TEP's government which hold the best interests of TEP at heart, as well as highly sympathetic nations from any other feeders which would be involved in the alliance. It's not some foreign body - it's an assembly of feeder "natives," which, in this day and age, have the ability to be involved in the governments of almost all of the feeders despite which one their WA nation may (or may not even) reside in anyway.

Quote:
 
The government of each region that ratifies the treaty of the Modern Pacific Alliance must do its best to accommodate the ideas and decisions of the assembly (in which their own representatives will participate) which pertain to aspects of the region over which said government reigns.


I understand that there was some grumbling over this line. I predicted this, and deliberately worked in a slight loophole; "do its best to accommodate the ideas and decisions of" is hardly "must comply exactly with all decrees made by" the MPA's assembly.

The reason I added this clause was mainly because I want this assembly to be a body of like-minded but not exactly congruent individuals from all of the MPA-involved feeders that work together to solve problems regarding feeder security and inactivity, not so that they can govern each of the feeders remotely and in the same exact fashion. This is not the creation of a "federal government" nor is it the creation of a "European Union."

This clause was mainly added to encourage feeder governments to implement ideas pulled together by the assembly that could help prevent inactivity, mainly those regarding recreation.

Quote:
 
All those that would act out in opposition of the governments of each member region of the Modern Pacific Alliance are to be deemed "delinquents" and should be listed and described before the assembly in the Modern Pacific Alliance's headquarters, however any member region is at liberty to withhold any individual cases that they believe unnecessary or sensitive.


This is one of my favorite clauses and was designed for the purpose of aiding feeder security; this clause would help each feeder in the MPA note who their mutual enemies could be and would give each a heads-up on who in their regions to keep an eye on.

Quote:
 
On the occasion of an emergency situation in a member region of the MPA, the other member regions should attempt anything and everything within their power to end such a state of emergency and return the other member region to its former, stable, secure state.


While I felt like wording this as "MUST attempt anything and everything within their power," I imagined that such a powerful wording would be a subject of great dispute when the treaty was being ratified. Right now it is mostly a strong encouragement to come to other regions' aid.

The treaty is far more casual than its intimidating wording might make it seem. Promote activity, promote security, promote sovereignty put forth a body of feeder-wide enthusiasts to act as a think tank to advise the regional governments and help solve the feeders' mutual or individual problems.

Todd informed me that the treaty wasn't quite what he had envisioned and the Magisterium, so far, seems displeased with certain aspects of it, however hopefully this post can clear some things up. If there are still problems with it, I can easily make edits. The alliance isn't official yet.

...or you could ratify it and the assembly could discuss it and modify it. I also hope you understand that TEP has the power to back out at any time. If, by some freak accident, the assembly does try to turn the MPA into some kind of federal government, the involved regions could simply leave.
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A mean old man
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Here are the "Values." The backbone of the Alliance, if you will.

If you are reading this post first please scroll up until you reach the top of my last post.

Quote:
 
We, the members of the Pacifics, of Lazarus, or of The Rejected Realms who represent our regions in this alliance, establish the following values for this body and agree to the terms put forth in this document.

No region that is not The Pacific, The North Pacific, The South Pacific, The East Pacific, The West Pacific, The Rejected Realms, or Lazarus may ever sign the treaty of and therefore be recognized as a member of the Modern Pacific Alliance nor will they ever send any representatives from their region to represent them as a member of the alliance's assembly.

The ROOT administrator of this alliance's forums is only to be replaced upon his or her resignation, after which the official representatives to this alliance will nominate and elect a new ROOT administrator. The new ROOT administrator must be elected by a 75% or higher vote for their admittance to the position by the alliance representatives.

Engineers of this alliance are those involved in the organization of the first meetings and creation of the original text of the alliance's Values and treaty. After the development stage of the alliance ends (once the first treaty is designed and accepted by at least two Pacific regions' current governments), the engineers will hold no position in the assembly here unless the government of their home region appoints them the position of a representative. Both this document and the treaty of the alliance will be signed by all of the engineers of this treaty.

Modern Pacific Alliance representatives will be appointed their position in this assembly by their home region's government if their home region is a member of this alliance. Every time a member region's government officially changes the region's delegate, it must appoint new representatives to the assembly or confirm that its former representatives will retain their positions. A member region of this alliance is at liberty to withdraw and replace its representatives at any time.

This document may only be edited if the edits -- which must be proposed to the representatives before the vote is cast and cannot be altered once the vote begins -- are proposed by an official representative to this body from any one of the Pacifics, from Lazarus, or from The Rejected Realms and if all of the representatives to this alliance vote for the proposed changes.

The treaty of this alliance may only be edited if the edits -- which must be proposed to the representatives before the vote is cast and cannot be altered once the vote begins -- are proposed by an official representative to this body from any one of the Pacifics, from Lazarus, or from The Rejected Realms and if 75% or more of the representatives to this alliance vote for the proposed changes.

In no way shall any members of the Pacifics, of Lazarus, or of The Rejected Realms, should they be representatives of their regions to this alliance, violate the terms set forth in this document or in the treaty of this alliance and therefore betray this alliance and the regions which are an active part of it lest they be willing to immediately renounce their membership here (legal attempts to edit this document or to edit the alliance's treaty do not count as violations), and never will the other members of this alliance condone any activity that violates these terms.

If a representative to this alliance violates these terms or the terms of this alliance's treaty it will be the duty of the other representatives to indict and remove them and the duty of the region which they represented to provide a new representative.

If it is deemed that the region which has provided the delinquent representative(s) has itself compelled their representative(s) to violate the terms of this document or the terms of this alliance's treaty, it will be the duty of the remaining representatives of the alliance to bar that region from participation in this alliance until certain requirements set by the remaining representatives are fulfilled or until a certain period of time set by the remaining representatives elapses.


If you are reading this post first please scroll up until you reach the top of my last post.
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SCKnightVulshain
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Well, it sounds good. There might be some benefit to doing this, just as long at TEP has a say in its own internal affairs.
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Like I said, it's not a commitment that hands the control of your government over to a collective body of members of the other feeders. You can't possibly imagine that one of the most outward critics of Punk Reloaded's "Republic" would support such an idea, would you?
:P

There are really only two things that are issues at vote here regarding the internal affairs of TEP; You must decide, as the region's Magisterium and as the legislators of The East Pacific:

- whether or not TEP's government is willing to use its own WA members as a sort of trade unit, something I've never seen happen in any of the feeders I've been involved in and which would likely be the prime activity of a foreign and corrupt force within a region's government if such a force was ever to exist in the future,

- whether or not TEP is willing to ever be involved in a WA bloc involving regions foreign to the feeders. And, like I said, this "limitation" is more one preventing further limitations - an ironic yet practical purpose.

...and whether the region is willing to send two representatives to the MPA's assembly to properly portray TEP's presence in the alliance.
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Carondia
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Considering the statements AMOM has made I would like to see one thing added. That the Assembly of the MPA shall make no law that passes or amends the laws of any member region. If that is passed I have noting against it
Citizen of The East Pacific
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Kelssek
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Following the clarifications I'm ok with the proposed treaty as it is.
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A mean old man
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Is wa
Aug 26 2011, 03:54 PM
Considering the statements AMOM has made I would like to see one thing added. That the Assembly of the MPA shall make no law that passes or amends the laws of any member region. If that is passed I have noting against it

I suppose I could add it, though I personally feel it would be unnecessary as the Treaty and Values, right now, give the assembly no power to do such a thing anyway. If the Magisterium as a whole feels it necessary I will oblige, however there's no need to make the treaty wordy.
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Stateless
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I agree with Kessek, I'm fine with how it's currently worded
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Feux
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This is a great idea AMOM. I would like to talk to you about it on a IRC if you get the time later.


==== Hey Short Man! ====
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A mean old man
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I'm on right now. I don't know if you're allowed to post here if you're not a member of the Magisterium or if you're not specifically given clearance to do so by the Provost, though, Jeux.
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Nothing wrong with a little input from the citizens
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SCKnightVulshain
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I'm okay with how it's written, too. Although, are y'all ready to start motioning to vote on this?
Confederacy of Vulshain
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Carondia
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I motion this to vote.

((Vulshain. Start the vote on the Conclave Appeal resolution))
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Barb
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AMoM,

Is there anything in this treaty that obliges one GCR to rush to the defense of another region? Another way to put it, do we all have to have armies?

Is there anything in this treaty that prohibits those who join from raiding each other?
Barb
Arbiter Barbara Manatee
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AMoM,

Is there anything in this treaty that obliges one GCR to rush to the defense of another region?  Another way to put it, do we all have to have armies?


No. The following passage of the treaty is the only one regarding involved feeders directly coming to each others' aid, followed by my commentary on it:

Quote:
 
On the occasion of an emergency situation in a member region of the MPA, the other member regions should attempt anything and everything within their power to end such a state of emergency and return the other member region to its former, stable, secure state.
Quote:
 
While I felt like wording this as "MUST attempt anything and everything within their power," I imagined that such a powerful wording would be a subject of great dispute when the treaty was being ratified. Right now it is mostly a strong encouragement to come to other regions' aid.


Quote:
 
Is there anything in this treaty that prohibits those who join from raiding each other?


You know...now that I think about it, I don't think there is. I guess the idea of such a course of events didn't really enter my head while this was being drafted. However, such a clause can easily be added by the representatives from TEP and TP if this treaty is ratified; after all, TEP and TP would be the only two regions involved at the start.

For some reason, though, I feel like such an activity has already been indirectly deemed unacceptable by a clause or a combination of clauses of the Values and/or Treaty. Best address it directly, though.
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Barb
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Thank you for your thoughtful response. The verbal or otherwise kerfuffle between TSP and TWP prompted me to ask.

It would seem that you're seeking autonomy - and that GCRs support each other in that. All for that. The whole rushing to defend each other thing is an obligation. "Anything and everything" seems unconditional.

Pssst. Just between us - a major drama has been concocted to drain a region of WAs on a mission of mercy to leave it open to raid. Can't exclude that possibility.
Barb
Arbiter Barbara Manatee
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SCKnightVulshain
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Okay start voting! And Barb I see you that silly line I used in the newspaper.
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