|
|
|
The East Pacific brought to you by, | |||||||||||||
|
Social
Roleplay
|
|
| Welcome to The East Pacific. We hope you enjoy your visit. You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you may register an account here! I'm registered. Where do I start? When you sign up on our forums, your account may be limited to certain forums, and unable to make requests in our roleplay section. We recommend that you Apply for Citizenship to gain all the benefits of being part of our roleplay community! |
| Eastern Pacific Sovereign Army Act | |
|---|---|
| Topic Started: Jun 7 2012, 12:13:04 PM (1,395 Views) | |
| A mean old man | Jun 7 2012, 12:13:04 PM Post #1 |
|
Curmudgeon
|
The second of two things for the new Magisterium to consider:
|
|
The Weed-Choked Lawn of A mean old man Always fighting crime -- especially youth-related.
| |
![]() |
|
| mcmasterdonia | Jun 8 2012, 12:39:25 AM Post #2 |
|
Kilroy was here
|
It looks good to me! I think its important for Feeders to have a standing army. I will be supporting this. Starting an army is a difficult task, I'm sure with the right leadership it will be successful. |
| |
![]() |
|
| mcmasterdonia | Jun 10 2012, 12:40:17 AM Post #3 |
|
Kilroy was here
|
Well I hereby move for a vote, |
| |
![]() |
|
| Kalibarr | Jun 10 2012, 11:21:51 AM Post #4 |
|
You got blood on my Suit.
|
I second that motion |
![]() |
|
| packilvania | Jun 10 2012, 04:58:04 PM Post #5 |
|
Caliph
|
While I have no rights as a citizen, I feel I must shed some light on history. TEP has never had a standing army, or the ability to wage war. It was actually part of our first concordant that it would never be allowed to happen. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. My apologies for interjecting, but I do not want to see my region plunged into chaos again. |
![]() "The Cybernets shall overrun every thing you hold dear. Assimilate." Loop: Well that rules out my Atomic Metroid Spy Toilet I had planned. DFD: WAAAAH, you butt hurt me. Cry cry cry. Todd My foreign officer ended up pushing her wiener (gl@sses) further up the bridge of her nose. | |
![]() |
|
| A mean old man | Jun 10 2012, 07:50:27 PM Post #6 |
|
Curmudgeon
|
Understandable, though deliberately emasculating ourselves wouldn't be wise. TEP needs to keep up with the times. The feeders are raising armies. It's about time we were able to swing our collective weight around rather than sit about passively and let people like those in the GGR walk on us. While the system I devised is not perfect, I did what I could to prevent it from becoming a corrupted one in the future. No system is perfectly incorruptible. That doesn't mean that we should thus avoid doing anything. |
|
The Weed-Choked Lawn of A mean old man Always fighting crime -- especially youth-related.
| |
![]() |
|
| drakkengard | Jun 10 2012, 09:53:43 PM Post #7 |
|
WA Liaison
|
I know i´m no longer a magister, but as a concerned citizen, i must say that i´m against the proposed act, as both the writing and AMOM reply to Pack are indicating the goal of this army is to be an attack force that will bring us nothing but unwanted trouble. Not to mention that GGR rants or the other feeders buiding armies do not seem reason enough to do anything more than perhaps have lessons on how to defend ourselves from invasions. |
![]() |
|
| A mean old man | Jun 10 2012, 11:01:55 PM Post #8 |
|
Curmudgeon
|
"...indicating the goal of this army is to be an attack force that will bring us nothing but unwanted trouble." This statement is false. I also like the idea of the feeders being able to help each other out in times of need with more than a few words of support (which is all they have been able to offer each other for a while, and it's not going to cut it anymore). This isn't just about offensive retaliation against those who infringe upon our sovereignty; it's about actually being able to provide our allies with something more than a few toothless words when their walls are being battered down. An offensive effort against GGR would without a doubt pull people into the service. A long-term commitment, however, is what I seek, but without the excitement of offensive maneuvers people aren't going to make that commitment. It's the sad truth. The feeders have been sleeping giants for a while. We're wasting a lot of potential by saying that we're too powerful for our own good and sitting on our hands. I don't believe in that idea. There is always a way to use our power to its fullest without making it a harmful thing. |
|
The Weed-Choked Lawn of A mean old man Always fighting crime -- especially youth-related.
| |
![]() |
|
| mcmasterdonia | Jun 11 2012, 06:55:22 AM Post #9 |
|
Kilroy was here
|
I don't feel there is need to apologize, as your magisters it is important that we know what you think. I must however agree with AMOM. I have recently had the responsibility of raising an army in The North Pacific. The South Pacific is taking similar measures. If the east wishes to keep up with the rest of the feeders it is necessary for it to take similar action itself. I don't believe that an East Pacific Army would simply be an attack force, drawing unwanted attention onto itself. It will give The East the ability to work with other feeder armies to fight against mutual enemies, and work together improving diplomatic relations along the way. The East Pacific must look towards the future, i feel that it is necessary that an army be a part of such a future. It is (no insult intended) a little silly to be jumping the gun, and declaring that an army would bring negative attention/war to The East Pacific. It is not clear that an Army would be able to gain significant numbers or activity. If however we block this legislation, we would be preventing TEP from taking the chance and necessary steps to making itself a force for good in the nationstates world. As long as the army continues to serve the people of the east, and defend its allies, it could only be a good thing. I believe this is the intention of such legislation. |
| |
![]() |
|
| Todd McCloud | Jun 11 2012, 05:53:53 PM Post #10 |
|
Planet Telox
|
This is an interesting argument, and as a Magister that is comprised of just three individuals, I welcome anyone to participate in this discussion. That being said, I'll start off by tackling this document point-by-point:
This part appears to be an extension of Article B, section 8 of our Concordat:
But it looks like declarations of war have been tightened a bit. Where the Concordat seems to be pretty loose for such things, this one has a more clearly defined process. Specifically, it makes things a bit more complicated, I think. Not a bad idea, but I like what we have currently in our Concordat, just because of its flexibility, though I do like the caveat of the delegate being able to veto a war declaration. I don't know about point 2. What happens if a really tiny org declares war with us - do we really want to engage in a war with an org that really doesn't have the capabilities to war in the first place?
If you mean Warzone regions, like Warzone Europe or Warzone Sandbox, I'd recommend changing the wording here to 'game-recognized warzone region' or something to that tune. The rest looks fairly rudimentary. You'd find much of that text in any region's army legislation for the most part. I guess what I am curious about is the implementation. I can't speak for all TEPers, but it seems to me that the majority of older members might remember the heinous acts of the Empire and hence have that experience to draw on when it comes to things like 'armies' 'occupations' and 'war'. Having many raider and defender folks here (mostly former), it also causes a bit of concern because I am not entirely sold on the issue of a 'neutral' army. And, once we pick a side, if we do pick a side, we become allies to one faction and enemies to the other. And usually it's very easy to make that jump off a fence and into a particular group - all you really need to do is tick off one side, and we're there. So I guess I have a few questions: 1. What's the main purpose of such an army? 2. How would we maintain its neutrality? 3. Would having an army keep us more secure or more open to attack? Or do we really need to worry about security based on the current structures we have in our government? |
|
"Your uniform doesn't seem to fit. You're much too alive in it." "You must be the change you want to see in the world" - Gandhi "The worst prison would be a closed heart." - Pope John Paul II Vekaiyu's Wiki Page | Ikrisia Levinile's Wiki Page | Listonia's Wiki Page | |
![]() |
|
| A mean old man | Jun 13 2012, 10:18:00 AM Post #11 |
|
Curmudgeon
|
Thank you for responding, Todd; I'll be very busy for the next few days but I will reply to your concerns soon. |
|
The Weed-Choked Lawn of A mean old man Always fighting crime -- especially youth-related.
| |
![]() |
|
| A mean old man | Jun 17 2012, 01:16:15 AM Post #12 |
|
Curmudgeon
|
This is a good point, though the state of war would mainly be declared arbitrarily and we wouldn't actually have to attack regions that didn't have the materials to go to war with us or damage us in any way. I wrote this mainly because, if a considerable entity declared war on TEP, the army might have to act as quickly as possible and waiting for the legislative and executive branch to declare war would not be practical.
Yes, I’d best edit that.
I did my best in the wording, mainly with the embellishment of declarations of war, to avoid this kind of situation occurring within TEP’s army; perhaps, however, it must be much more firmly asserted and with direct terminology. I believe that it is possible to have neutral armies in NS these days; TSP could be a shining example if it wasn’t for Unibot’s FA failure, and that one isn’t TSP’s fault. It’s a fairly simple concept, really; a neutral army is an army that defends the region’s allies attacks the region’s enemies specifically and doesn’t take groups of people that the region has never been involved with and fight or aid them as well. It’s about time regions began to assert their independence and be able to participate in the world of NS war and organized WA militarism without being dragged into the dominating R/D dynamic. Which better regions to make this push than the feeders?
I’d say there are really two main purposes: activity and authority. Armies breed activity and interest in the game as well as loyalty to the regions that harbor them. The formal alliances between the Pacifics also mean next to nothing if we can only supply our friends with a few statements of support when they’re under attack; with a group of organized armies, the Pacifics can watch each others’ backs and promote activity within their apathetic populaces; something we’re lacking currently. We should have the ability to assert our power within our homes even more forcibly and show those that would make these regions a playground that we will chew them up and spit them out when they try to break down our doors.
Firmly. The measures I took within the text of the legislation itself to achieve this were various. Like I said, the system for declarations of war was made fairly complicated: only a totally raider/defender dominated executive and legislative branch would allow this to be abused and would allow the region to declare war on as many regions as they chose to in order to make the army’s interaction with them relevant. Also, it is unlikely that large numbers of raiders or defenders would be “weekend” participants or sleepers within TEP’s army due to its strict rule against simultaneous militant participation. If they want to raid or defend, they can do so somewhere else. TEP’s army only has room for those who are entirely loyal to TEP. I’m going to write into the legislation very specifically, however, as a final measure here, that the army or government will never officially pick a side in the R/D conflict. I think that will be the icing on the cake.
If anything building our army will keep us even more secure than we already are, or simply help to guarantee our near imperviousness. Collaboration within the feeders will prompt more organization within our allies’ armies and quicker response times on their parts should we find ourselves in need of assistance. Anyone who would express hostility against TEP and threaten its security in response to our region’s formation of an independent army was no friend of TEP to begin with; outspoken enemies are easier to fight than silent, hidden ones anyway. Most regions could never raise a hand against us in our own home anyway because of our executive structure. |
|
The Weed-Choked Lawn of A mean old man Always fighting crime -- especially youth-related.
| |
![]() |
|
| mcmasterdonia | Jun 17 2012, 01:30:30 AM Post #13 |
|
Kilroy was here
|
Thanks for clarifying somethings for us AMOM. The armies allegiance is always going to be called into question at some point, we shall have to ensure that at all times it reflects neutrality and defence of TEP's allies and interests at all times. |
| |
![]() |
|
| A mean old man | Jun 17 2012, 01:52:04 AM Post #14 |
|
Curmudgeon
|
|
|
The Weed-Choked Lawn of A mean old man Always fighting crime -- especially youth-related.
| |
![]() |
|
| mcmasterdonia | Jun 17 2012, 01:55:10 AM Post #15 |
|
Kilroy was here
|
ok, well with those amendments I move for a vote, Again.
|
| |
![]() |
|
| Todd McCloud | Jun 20 2012, 03:18:56 PM Post #16 |
|
Planet Telox
|
Understood. I can see how if one region were to declare war on us, we'd be in a state of war and both regions should at least be able to recognize that. Mos regions don't really 'declare war' from what I've seen / remembered - they generally just attack and then work on the formalities later.
Alright. I suppose it boils down with how often such an army is used. If it is used only when TEP's allies or TEP itself is being attacked, or perhaps to assist another ally with a particular mission, it would then see action. Otherwise, it'd pretty much be dormant aside from maybe a training mission here and there. Is that right?
Very well, but I question the frequency here. Feeder coups are becoming less and less of a problem as regions become more and more capable of defending themselves. A great defense has often been stemmed from active, loyal, and high-influenced members in the region, which we have and which we've used before to remove coups or threats from the region. I also see it as a community attention-getter. I can see that, but could you go into a little more detail with that? It would give newer members something to do, but unless the ranks are coached well and the system is organized, it can actually hurt morale.
Will the army be more independent, or more of a division in a greater pacific army? Sorry it's taken me some time to respond - I've been sick / busy these past few weeks but I will divert attention to this so we can maybe get something finalized soon. |
|
"Your uniform doesn't seem to fit. You're much too alive in it." "You must be the change you want to see in the world" - Gandhi "The worst prison would be a closed heart." - Pope John Paul II Vekaiyu's Wiki Page | Ikrisia Levinile's Wiki Page | Listonia's Wiki Page | |
![]() |
|
| A mean old man | Jun 22 2012, 01:20:20 AM Post #17 |
|
Curmudgeon
|
Perhaps the act should recognize an act of aggression as a declaration of war.
The examples you described would be the only times that I would realistically want to see the army used in an influential fashion. However, the fact that all our allies within the feeders appear to be raising neutral armies could be extremely beneficial during periods of dormancy; a little friendly competition and training within the warzones (and possibly in locally created puppet regions), if it was approved of by all involved parties, could keep our armies active when they aren't defending our allies or attacking our enemies.
Armies could make the response time to coups almost instant and prevent things like the JAL coup in TNP from dragging on for as long as they did and making a farce of feeder democracy. TNP's SC, had it the help of the armies that exist today, would have had JAL sitting in TRR before you Collectively, we're getting stronger; we are not, however, impervious.
I have a lot of faith in the people within this region and the people I've found to help me set this army up should it be approved by the Magisterium. We have people currently within TEP and from both sides of the R/D spectrum willing to dedicate 100% of their NS activity to this army and whose former or current connections will not jeopardize their ability to lead the ESPA as a neutral force. We can do this.
I do not believe in a "greater pacific army." I believe in a sort of collaborative Pacific unity, but our independent armies cannot become some sort of amalgamated whole. The concept is unsettling. There are times that our armies can all come together. The GGR is an outspoken enemy of all of us, and this time of war against them could be one of those times that the feeder armies all unite against a common enemy. Our armies, however, despite sometimes being given a common goal, must operate separately, under their own governments and under the control of their own officials. If action is to be coordinated, it must be done so by the leaders of the different armies and within the systems of each individual force. If our army is to be a "division" of anything, it will be of our own government, and not of a divided attitude. The Pacific armies might be viewed by some as a greater Pacific army, especially when they all move together against regions like GGR. I'd imagine the idea of a united Pacific force might make some fearful of our influence. Good. Let them fear us. When people like those in GGR violate our laws and disrespect all of our homes, the world should see what we are willing to do to assert our dignity and demand respect from those who deny us it. But the armies, though they might appear as one at times, must not actually be one. |
|
The Weed-Choked Lawn of A mean old man Always fighting crime -- especially youth-related.
| |
![]() |
|
| A mean old man | Jun 22 2012, 01:22:16 AM Post #18 |
|
Curmudgeon
|
Edited in lieu of Todd's post.
|
|
The Weed-Choked Lawn of A mean old man Always fighting crime -- especially youth-related.
| |
![]() |
|
| mcmasterdonia | Jun 23 2012, 11:08:57 AM Post #19 |
|
Kilroy was here
|
With that done. I move for a vote. |
| |
![]() |
|
| A mean old man | Jun 23 2012, 11:58:02 AM Post #20 |
|
Curmudgeon
|
Heh. Yes, I'm chomping at the bit to get something done as well. Maybe this time it will be seconded? |
|
The Weed-Choked Lawn of A mean old man Always fighting crime -- especially youth-related.
| |
![]() |
|
| Kalibarr | Jun 23 2012, 05:05:12 PM Post #21 |
|
You got blood on my Suit.
|
I second this motion |
![]() |
|
| Todd McCloud | Jun 23 2012, 08:27:49 PM Post #22 |
|
Planet Telox
|
Alright, I now open the floor to voting. Magisters have until Wednesday 9:00 pm EST (Thursday 3:00 am GMT) to vote on the current bill. Please vote aye, nay, or abstain. |
|
"Your uniform doesn't seem to fit. You're much too alive in it." "You must be the change you want to see in the world" - Gandhi "The worst prison would be a closed heart." - Pope John Paul II Vekaiyu's Wiki Page | Ikrisia Levinile's Wiki Page | Listonia's Wiki Page | |
![]() |
|
| mcmasterdonia | Jun 24 2012, 07:20:38 AM Post #23 |
|
Kilroy was here
|
Aye |
| |
![]() |
|
| Todd McCloud | Jun 25 2012, 12:18:47 AM Post #24 |
|
Planet Telox
|
Aye. |
|
"Your uniform doesn't seem to fit. You're much too alive in it." "You must be the change you want to see in the world" - Gandhi "The worst prison would be a closed heart." - Pope John Paul II Vekaiyu's Wiki Page | Ikrisia Levinile's Wiki Page | Listonia's Wiki Page | |
![]() |
|
| Kalibarr | Jun 27 2012, 04:35:19 PM Post #25 |
|
You got blood on my Suit.
|
Aye |
![]() |
|
| Todd McCloud | Jun 27 2012, 07:00:34 PM Post #26 |
|
Planet Telox
|
By a vote of 3-0, this law passes. I'll wire this over to the delegate. |
|
"Your uniform doesn't seem to fit. You're much too alive in it." "You must be the change you want to see in the world" - Gandhi "The worst prison would be a closed heart." - Pope John Paul II Vekaiyu's Wiki Page | Ikrisia Levinile's Wiki Page | Listonia's Wiki Page | |
![]() |
|
| A mean old man | Jun 27 2012, 11:07:41 PM Post #27 |
|
Curmudgeon
|
Approved. |
|
The Weed-Choked Lawn of A mean old man Always fighting crime -- especially youth-related.
| |
![]() |
|
| 1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous) | |
| « Previous Topic · Archive: Magisterium · Next Topic » |






7:42 PM Jul 10