In Defence of the Conclave

I have kept my true thoughts and feelings hidden about this entire affair. I see no reason to continue. Public ire can not get any worse. Nor do I have the will to constrain myself any longer. And no one else has hidden their contempt for the Conclave either.

When I agreed to become an Arbiter, back a long time ago in Atlae’s DMs, I agreed to follow the Arbiter’s duties to render the most accurate verdict possible. I was voted into the Conclave because it was assumed that I am honest and will live up to my duties. I did honour my agreement, and I will continue to defend the verdict I gave. When the verdict was published, I had to fend off the tidal wave of backlash it immediately generated, by both the Citizens and the Magisterium. I did that, and I will continue to defend myself.

Not once did I ever act illegally. Not once did I render a verdict that was inaccurate. And not once did I ever interpret the comments made by an enraged mob against the Conclave in bad faith. I made the verdict and every single time someone tried to argue with it, I made a good faith attempt to defend it.

The Conclave, as the region’s judiciary, is powerful by default. We are the sole interpreters of the Concordat and laws. We are the sole judges of the Citizens. And we are expected to act honestly and to our duties as bound within the Concordat. If you don’t want or like this, then abolish the Conclave.

No one reads the verdict. For all people’s confidence in their flagrantly false opinions and disreputed and arbitrary attempts to find a different interpretation of the repeal and replace, not one person I have argued with has even bothered to read the verdict or the repeal and replace clause. Read the verdict. Read that clause. All people have done is give it a cursory examination, panicked over the effects, then gone on a warpath to spill Conclave blood. The amount of times I had to clarify that this was not an amendment but a repeal and replace is absurd. It is a repeal and replace, we said that it is in the verdict, we clarified why, but clearly no one reads. And because of it, the Conclave gets ripped into over the lack of attention to detail of others. Our verdict was carefully written. Pay attention. People’s ignorance to what we made clear is not our fault.

And stop making mockeries of the English language by arbitrarily redefining words because the common definitions have become inconvenient to accept. “Repeal”, “replace”, and “amendment” aren’t words we made up on the fly. Words have meanings that have to be considered. So, seriously, stop.

The sheer number of borderline treasonous and dishonest messages and actions over the verdict is truly mind-numbing. Trying to force the second Concordat to stay by ignoring the verdict, arguing for a coup, or by the force of residents that supposedly gave us Arbiters our powers and can supposedly strip them away, whatever this argument means, is all borderline treason. If this was done in any other context, people would be on trial or have charges filed against them. This is a fact.

And who advised the Praesidium to consider forcefully taking the region hostage because we rendered the accurate verdict? We did our legal duty. We were within the bounds of the law. Why doesn’t the Praesidium release their discussions about this in the public interest to how they drew the conclusion that they had the power in the beginning? We intend on releasing our discussions, I argued for the disclosure of discussions before a draft verdict was even decided on. Right now, we are waiting on Halley’s approval before making it public. What’s got the Praesidium stuck up? Or is the Praesidium throwing out a comment about holding the region hostage less of a problem than the Arbiters doing their duty? Privately, I confessed to Wallenburg that I feared a coup against the Conclave for its verdict. I am vindicated for believing that now that Amom has said that the Viziers almost did seize the region. We acted with good faith. We acted to reduce public confusion with this. We have done what we can and what we should as Arbiters. Yet still we become public enemies. Throughout all of this, only a handful of people chose not to advocate for something borderline treasonous, and the bulk of this minority was the Conclave.

I’m frankly sick of being cast as a devil. Getting called a “lawyer asshole”, corrupt, treasonous, stupid, and being accused of couping the region all the whilst protecting myself from legal repercussions is nothing but toxic attacks on my character and projections of what people have advocated for themselves.

Long before a first draft was even made, I asked Em to step and use admin powers to keep the situation as it is. Later, I asked them again. Both times Em reiterated that the admin team will not step in, that this is for the government, not the community. So where do people get the notion that we should be rendering inaccurate verdicts because of the community? We aren’t admin, I asked admin to step in, and they refused. Do I know better than admin? This entire line of reasoning is completely nonsense since it asks us to abandon our duty as Arbiters and take up the responsibilities of admin.

Next, the same people who put out these messages about how we are dishonest or corrupt or couping are themselves advocating for corrupt measures, and being generally dishonest in their interactions. For example, Serge has consistently used his pin powers in #government-plaza to make politically motivated pins and some people have argued for nominating a different set of Arbiters that will agree to overturn our verdict. The former I find to be a misuse of Discord permissions granted by being a Community Mod, and the latter is plainly political corruption. Where were Serge’s pins when we Arbiters consistently made rebuttals and refutations? Why were there politically motivated pins done with Community Mod powers to begin with? We were exhausting ourselves making the same points ad nauseam all the whilst these points were pinned for everyone to reuse and recycle whenever they felt like. We have the benefit of being the only Conclave nominated without this judicial review in mind or memory. We were neutral when we came into this as was everyone else who voted us in as this issue was never brought up. We were not nominated on the basis of our opinions regarding this, as I’m sure a future Conclave will be, given the contempt shown towards honesty in regard to dealing with the Conclave.

We never interpreted people’s words in bad faith. We made good faith discussions on clearly bad faith attempts. Was it foolish of us? Yes, clearly it was, since these people were already itching for retribution. Damned if we do, damned if we don’t. So before people bash us over supposedly acting beyond our powers, over being corrupt, over being treasonous, over being assholes, why don’t they look at what they’ve said.

Now the Magisterium is going to enact punitive retribution against the Conclave for doing its job. The same body of Magisters who made borderline treasonous and bad faith comments about ways to ignore the judicial review. Make no mistake, this is the Conclave’s punishment. We exposed the Magisterium’s mistake, we undid them, and the Magisterium is now going to enact “reforms” and “checks and balances” which are nothing but euphemisms and thin veils to hide their anger at our verdict. The Magisterium’s discussions are shams. The Conclave is going to be made to suffer for ruling accurately. Serge’s current proposal is a complete farce. All regular logic is going out of the window as is the rule of law. The Magisterium is setting itself up for parliamentary sovereignty where it can forcefully legalize any illegal action it takes and the Conclave is powerless against it. People are ignoring the non-ex post facto issue willingly and deliberately. Even if Serge’s farce of an amendment passes, by non-ex post facto, we can still make a ruling. The powder keg this region sleeps on thanks to the Magisterium’s mistake remains. At least until the Magisterium kills off non-ex post facto next which I predict it will because owning up to its mistake and fixing it has proven too burdensome for it. I predict that the Magisterium will “solve” the non-ex post facto “problem”, a “problem” created by illegal Magisterium actions, by forcing the Conclave to accept that non-ex post facto only applies when it doesn’t inconvenience the Magisterium, as it does right now.

Do your duties. The Magisterium is trying to make a puppet out of the Conclave by enacting punishments for what it considers to be bad behavior and by some Magisters flat out suggesting and supporting the politically motivated replacements of Arbiters to force the Conclave to rule a verdict that the Magisterium did nothing wrong. Even some Viziers, one of whom is an Arbiter, are joining this dog pile and arguing for an atrociously powerful Praesidium that absorbs the Conclave. The Magisterium can enact whatever form of revenge it wants. It is the height of dishonesty to make a mistake, have it exposed, and then punish the people who exposed it. The Conclave has a clean conscience that it upheld its duties, acted honestly, and legally.

If you have complaints against Community Moderators for abuse of power, or against members of the discord server for flaming or baiting, please contact the Administration. The Plaza is a mostly-IC place, and this is a mostly-IC post, so I recommend keeping OOC parts of it in the proper channels. Additionally, public discussion of these accusations rather than private reports may be interpreted as an attempt to attack certain members of the community, which I think is an assumption we all want to avoid. I may respond to this IC at some point, but the OOC things that need addressing should be addressed before any IC debate occurs.

— Begin quote from ____

And who advised the Praesidium to consider forcefully taking the region hostage because we rendered the accurate verdict? We did our legal duty. We were within the bounds of the law.

— End quote

Nociav, You and I have disagreed on this Verdict from Day 1, from when we even accepted the JR in the first place.  However, you know damn well where the Praesidium got thier power. They are there for the security and safety of the region. The Conclave at Large’s ruling threw TEP into such a tailspin that this would be exactly the time for the Praesidium to step in and keep things steady and to prevent any evil doer from trying to just waltz in and try to undermine us anymore than we were.  Don’t act like this isn’t within their wheelhouse of Legal powers.

As for the rest of this post, I will write my thoughts and commentary on the matter later

— Begin quote from ____

If you don’t want or like this, then abolish the Conclave.

— End quote

I disagree. Let us compare Conclave to a train. The tracks are its defined duties. Conclave is bound by these tracks, forced onto this path. It cannot escape. It can try to think of ways to change course, but if the tracks don’t allow it, they don’t allow it. And if the tracks end at the end of a cliff, the train falls off a cliff. It is the people’s responsibility to build new tracks, over the chasm, or turning away from it. Without demolishing the tracks or stopping the train. Because those options prevent a trainwreck, but then how will the train ever reach its destination? We should be looking to divert the tracks from chaos without stopping the train. Abolishing Conclave only creates new problems. Problems we shouldn’t have to deal with. But letting the train continue to go down this path will likewise lead to ruin. Reform is possible without drastic action. We can fix this problem without abolishing Conclave just as we can fix this problem without reversing all the government’s progress since 2020.

— Begin quote from ____

For all people’s confidence in their flagrantly false opinions and disreputed and arbitrary attempts to find a different interpretation of the repeal and replace, not one person I have argued with has even bothered to read the verdict or the repeal and replace clause. Read the verdict. Read that clause. All people have done is give it a cursory examination, panicked over the effects, then gone on a warpath to spill Conclave blood.

— End quote

The amount of research people put into their appeals is mindboggling, so much so that I’d say it’s practically impossible to not have read through the Judicial Review whilst having read through every iteration of the Concordat, every former Conclave ruling, and the Articles of Confederation. Also considering how heavily these appeals hinge on the wording of the verdict, I’d say they must have read it. I know I certainly did.

For the other part of this section, “false opinions” is an oxymoron. Opinions cannot be false. Interpretations can be non-binding, but that doesn’t make them inherently false. They have merit. Just because the merit of one interpretation trumps another doesn’t mean the other is worth nothing. Especially when it is well-intentioned.

— Begin quote from ____

The amount of times I had to clarify that this was not an amendment but a repeal and replace is absurd. It is a repeal and replace, we said that it is in the verdict, we clarified why, but clearly no one reads.

— End quote

Some people believe “repeal and replace” is a misrepresentation of what happened, and their argument is that the thing was an amendment, not that the term “repeal and replace” means amendment. Others believe that the term “repeal and replace” means amendment. I believe it is important to make this distinction between those who say it’s an amendment.

— Begin quote from ____

And stop making mockeries of the English language by arbitrarily redefining words because the common definitions have become inconvenient to accept. “Repeal”, “replace”, and “amendment” aren’t words we made up on the fly. Words have meanings that have to be considered. So, seriously, stop.

— End quote

Magister has a definition, Conclave and Arbiter have definitions, Delegate has a definition, and so does Vizier. These definitions aren’t rendered invalid by the definitions we invent any more than the definitions we invent are rendered invalid by the original definitions. Amendment means “a minor change or addition designed to improve a text, piece of legislation, etc.” but is legally defined as any change specifically to the Concordat. If we’re going to stop redefining words, we should start calling Magisters Senators, Conclave High Court, Arbiters Justices, Delegates President, and Viziers Security Officers.

— Begin quote from ____

The sheer number of borderline treasonous and dishonest messages and actions over the verdict is truly mind-numbing. Trying to force the second Concordat to stay by ignoring the verdict, arguing for a coup, or by the force of residents that supposedly gave us Arbiters our powers and can supposedly strip them away, whatever this argument means, is all borderline treason.

— End quote

I agree. The “Andrew Jackson” approach is entirely illegal and overly hostile. It assumes a Civil War and thus causes one. We don’t want this by any means. I strongly disagree with any attempts to coup the government on behalf of the people because (a) that completely undermines our legitimacy and diplomatic relations and (b) it assumes that this is the only possible course of action. It’s not. There were two peaceful solutions, and one of them even succeeded. This is a drastic overreaction fueled by anger and fear. I think some people realized that, though, which is why no real attempt was made. I don’t mean to speak for others, though, just offer my interpretation of these events.

— Begin quote from ____

And who advised the Praesidium to consider forcefully taking the region hostage because we rendered the accurate verdict? We did our legal duty. We were within the bounds of the law. Why doesn’t the Praesidium release their discussions about this in the public interest to how they drew the conclusion that they had the power in the beginning?

— End quote

“Hostage” is an exaggeration. The Viziers all agreed on one thing - I would stay as a Delegate and the Viziers whose legitimacy is being questioned would stay as Viziers. The reason behind this was that any hostile actor would find this the perfect time to attack the region. Everything they did was to keep the region safe. They are entrusted with that duty in every Concordat.

— Begin quote from ____

We intend on releasing our discussions, I argued for the disclosure of discussions before a draft verdict was even decided on. Right now, we are waiting on Halley’s approval before making it public. What’s got the Praesidium stuck up? Or is the Praesidium throwing out a comment about holding the region hostage less of a problem than the Arbiters doing their duty?

— End quote

This is the first I’ve heard that the Conclave is releasing these discussions. However, the Praesidium, given that it deals with the security of the region rather than the interpretation of laws, does indeed have more of a right to secrecy than the Conclave. That said, I will bring this up with the Viziers. If they do release these chats, you’ll find that no Viziers advised illegal courses of action - although some did advocate for legal changes in the government, such as one suggesting the Magisterium legally amend the Concordat to dissolve Conclave (which was disagreed with by everyone else who was present). In fact, most of the actions proposed were rejected, which all may see in the fact that no action was taken.

— Begin quote from ____

We acted with good faith. We acted to reduce public confusion with this. We have done what we can and what we should as Arbiters. Yet still we become public enemies.

— End quote

They disagree with the tracks and blame the train. They have the power to change the tracks. This is an issue.

— Begin quote from ____

Throughout all of this, only a handful of people chose not to advocate for something borderline treasonous, and the bulk of this minority was the Conclave.

— End quote

That’s not fair. I’d say about a dozen people were advocating for appeal, a few more were trying to convince Conclave they were wrong without pursuing action, a few others were looking to push through by accepting the verdict and pushing through to the other side, a few others were advocating something borderline treasonous, and most of the region was just waiting with bated breath. Shadow was in the first group. Wall was in the third to last. You were sleeping. Halley was on LoA.

— Begin quote from ____

I’m frankly sick of being cast as a devil. Getting called …] corrupt, treasonous, …], and being accused of couping the region all the whilst protecting myself from legal repercussions …].

— End quote

Was this right? No, but just as the people who were saying Conclave was couping should understand your feelings about the matter, you should understand theirs: They were scared the region was in danger of collapsing, angry that their government would not just let it happen but cause it, and either determined to save it by any means or resigned to accept their fate and leave the region. This is not something the citizenry should ever feel, but it doesn’t give them the right to operate under clouded judgement. I tried to advocate for taking a break and coming back with a focus on fixing the problem rather than bemoaning it, but they were not listening. And that goes for everyone on every side, not just those who disagreed with Conclave’s decision.

— Begin quote from ____

Long before a first draft was even made, I asked Em to step and use admin powers to keep the situation as it is. Later, I asked them again. Both times Em reiterated that the admin team will not step in, that this is for the government, not the community. So where do people get the notion that we should be rendering inaccurate verdicts because of the community? We aren’t admin, I asked admin to step in, and they refused. Do I know better than admin? This entire line of reasoning is completely nonsense since it asks us to abandon our duty as Arbiters and take up the responsibilities of admin.

— End quote

Community in this case means citizenry. I think that’s where the confusion lies.

— Begin quote from ____

We were not nominated on the basis of our opinions regarding this, as I’m sure a future Conclave will be.

— End quote

This is a valid point, and a discussion we should have as a citizen body. My train metaphor won’t make sense here, but I can’t decide if it’s important to base future nominations on this.

— Begin quote from ____

We made good faith discussions on clearly bad faith attempts.

— End quote

If the first thing you jump to is “They’re arguing in bad faith and we’re arguing in good faith” whilst the first thing the other side jumps to is the same, then something’s wrong. Usually, it means both are in the wrong. I think this is the case, considering everyone’s insistence to keep arguing and keep fueling their anger and fear instead of stepping away or focusing on a solution.

— Begin quote from ____

Now the Magisterium is going to enact punitive retribution against the Conclave for doing its job.

— End quote

Do you think it’s a good thing that this happened? Because the “punitive retribution” you describe is making sure it doesn’t happen again. That’s not an attack on the Arbiters, it’s a protective measure placed on the region.

See, this is the problem: Us vs them. We’re one TEP united, we’re not Conclave vs Magisterium. Feeding this mentality with more anger and more fighting does not help the region. It harms it.

— Begin quote from ____

The Magisterium’s discussions are shams.

— End quote

Their proceedings are completely legal and justified.

— Begin quote from ____

Serge’s current proposal is a complete farce.

— End quote

I think it has its merits.

— Begin quote from ____

All regular logic is going out of the window as is the rule of law.

— End quote

Claiming that rule of law is being violated by legal proceedings to change the legal system doesn’t make sense. However, logic? I’d say a lot of people are dismissing logic in favor of emotion, but I think that includes you, not just the people that disagree with you, and certainly not all of the people that disagree with you.

— Begin quote from ____

The Magisterium is setting itself up for parliamentary sovereignty where it can forcefully legalize any illegal action it takes and the Conclave is powerless against it.

— End quote

Would you rather Conclave be able to overturn legal actions as well as illegal ones? Because that’s the alternative here. Either the Magisterium retroactively says everything’s alright, or everything goes to hell. I’d prefer the former.

— Begin quote from ____

fixing [the mistake] has proven too burdensome for [the Magisterium]

— End quote

Saying we’re not fixing this but not saying how we can fix this means that all you want to come of this is for the mistake to remain.

— Begin quote from ____

The Magisterium is trying to make a puppet out of the Conclave

— End quote

The claim you are making here only further divides and weakens the region.

— Begin quote from ____

Even some Viziers …] arguing for an atrociously powerful Praesidium that absorbs the Conclave.

— End quote

1/16 is saying this. So far 4/16 are openly disagreeing and 11/16 are yet to weigh in. Shadow, for the record, is not the one proposing it.

Overall, you are making the same exact mistakes as the people you are complaining about. You are, intentionally or not, dividing the region and forcing it to focus on blame rather than solutions. You make some good points, which should be discussed in further detail, but throughout it all you lace the argument with destructive anger and fear that can only do further harm to the region. Ignore the emotional side and focus on the practical side. We need to fix the region, not yell at each other.

Just because I’m addressing Nociav and telling him his actions are harmful doesn’t mean I think everyone else’s actions aren’t. Too many people are making this mistake, and I’m replying to one of the ones doing so because he is doing it in such a way as to invite comment. I tried to say the same thing I’m saying to him to everyone in generalized comments, but no one listened. If anyone else makes posts with the same reasonless anger and “us vs them” mentality, I’m saying the same thing to them.

We need to separate other people from their ideas, or we’ll risk dividing people into invisible tribes that all hate each other. I don’t think anyone wants that, but I think they’re not paying attention to where they’re going.

This topic has been locked