[PROPOSAL] TEPWA Exclusive Citizenship

The Overseeing Officer can be removed by a two-thirds majority vote of the Magisterium for inactivity, high crimes, treason, or inability to perform their duties.

^ quote thing from EPSA act.

Anyway, as a field commander, how can I send my troops onto assignments knowing that the instant they drop WA, they’re going to get called up by the citizen office? When people have complaints about ministry activities, one looks for the head of the ministry and ask them what they doing right?

One doesn’t go down to the staff on the ground and ask them for details because 1) they don’t know the full picture and 2) they’re just following orders

“There’s also the consideration of past coup attempts. In 2008, members of TWP known as the Empire attacked TEP and sought to capture it. After they were defeated, their remnants – mostly members of LWU – came back and tried to coup us again in 2019. In the heights of the New Pacific Order, it sent its agents into other GCRs to take them over from within. There were also attempts to infiltrate and influence TEP by defenders.”

How does this amendment stop that considering a good 90% of them moved their WAs here so they’d be eligible for being Citizens under this amendment?

Also the amendment fully ignores people who have been temporarily banned from WA. One of our ex-Delegates multied by error and was tempbanned. That’d make them lose Citizenship and rights it grants because of a dumb mistake.

I agree with Luck that there needs to be trust in the OO to keep track and be responsible for their troops. I also get how the OO isn’t as long term as the Praesidium, but it’s also downplaying the position to say they can’t be trusted. I think it should be done through the OO for the concerns for Opsec. Failure to disclose in a timely manner should be considered an offense punishable to keep it from becoming a problem. Also, I think there should be a grace period of 1 update to get your nation back to Wa in TEP because I know for one majors are pretty late for me and I have fallen asleep straight after update before, I’m human and can forget to switch back. (Obviously not currently as Vizier but you get what I mean)

Sleepy morning Drem

1 Like

I find myself very split on this proposal.

Philosophically speaking, I do not distrust cosmopolitanism, and I think the line of thought of “commitment to TEP should be full time” is… harsh. I don’t oppose being in multiple regions the same way that I don’t oppose having multiple citizenships in real life. Yes, of course we want our people to be focused on helping us and building our region up, but I would be more satisfied if we earn that from people than if we force it by fiat. It’s undeniable that people with multiple citizenships have made incredible contributions to our region. We would close off a potential source of talent if we make this change without care.

I won’t support the change without a clearly laid out process by which the Praesidium can grant an exception to the WA rule. I think we cause more harm than good by closing our doors to people whose WA nations are in other regions simply because of that reason. Security is very important, and our region has most certainly faced threats. But making ourselves too insular is also a threat—if not to our security than to our efficacy, as people burn out or we lose input from new perspectives and new ideas.

I already posted this on Discord, but I did a cursory analysis of all the GCRs in how they deal with this issue:

“Local WA req’d” means that in order to have citizenship, you must have a WA nation in that region. Of 11 GCRs, only 4 currently have this requirement, and of these, only one—The Outback—has no provision for an exception. In fact, even requiring WA membership at all (which we do, just not locally) is a minority, 5 of 11. (I am fairly sure it is not required in Balder, just recommended.) I was surprised by these results. I expected to find that requiring a local WA was the rule, not the exception.

That all said, so long as there is a healthy and strong provision for exceptions from the WA rule, I find it hard to outright oppose the change. Non-citizen residents have a very strong basis of fundamental rights in TEP. The issue at question is primarily a vote in Delegate elections, a vote in referendums, and a vote in the Magisterium. (A citizenship requirement is implied for Viziers, and contrary to what my above chart says, I actually don’t think it’s required for being on the Conclave.) Residents can even propose and debate legislation—just not vote. Residents can serve in the executive and join our roleplays. What we are protecting here is the leadership of our region, the text of our laws, and membership in the bodies that hold the power to remove officers, and I think it’s reasonable for us to safeguard these things. It strikes me that a candidate for the Delegacy would very likely already have proven themselves enough to earn an exemption from the Praesidium.

I might like the exception provision to be phrased in such a way that granting the exception is the default. Something like “The Praesidium shall issue an exception to this requirement on application from a resident unless it has been demonstrated to the satisfaction of the Praesidium that granting the exception would present a risk to regional security.” In other words, it must be shown that there is a threat, not be shown that there is not a threat. That does represent a significant weakening of the proposal, I admit. But it leaves what constitutes a risk up to the Praesidium, and as I said, personally, I don’t see there being any fundamental issue with cosmopolitanism on its face. Mind you, I’m not saying the proposal has to have this or I walk. But I will be looking to ensure the exception provision is strong.

You still fundamentally misunderstand. It’s not about knowing where their WA is every waking moment. It’s about extended operations.

As an EPSA commander, can you provide the following information:

  1. When was the last operation that required WA locking for longer than a single update?
  2. How many such operations have you seen in your tenure?
  3. How frequent are they?
  4. How many citizen participants do they typically have?

When I was Commander in Chief, the answer to these questions were (1) years ago, (2) none, (3) pretty much never, and (4) very few.

I explained this to someone or other, so if it sounds familiar to anyone that’s why but here’s my answer here:

In Fedele’s case – and I think it’d be safe to say most if not all cases – there is the core group of coupers, a tangential group of voters, and an associated group of manipulated natives. I could and might write an essay on this, but in Fedele’s case, examples include, respectively, Aleister, Badger, and Kilkire. The last two categories are not necessarily “in on it,” although the second may be. Either way, the second group is barred by this amendment, making voter importation more difficult.

This is also true of our current system.

The problem is that they’d both be punished. The soldier would have to rely on the OO and if there’s a single case where the OO fails, then that’s an innocent citizen suffering for no reason.

I understand but also – if you can switch 20 times or 50 times you can switch 21 times or 51 times. Just one more switch order. Just a few minutes.

Not “full time commitment.” “Top priority.” And only for voting, which you describe better than I think I’ve been able to. The nuances are important. Citizenship in multiple regions is still allowed – as a citizen of four regions, I would still be allowed, for example.

That’s just the current system, for the record. The goal is to tighten the system (at least a little bit).

Alrighty, on the tagging side of things;

Firstly, perhaps it may look like just one more time, however it loses two things; time, and patience. Tags, with Henson now being inoperable, is a pain to prepare for- that one extra WA application is just so much more tiring, and remember, they’ll have to resign afterwards for another nation, and join after update. Not fun.

As for time- “a few minutes” can be a lot of time, faster tags could have what, like 2, 3 jumps in 4 minutes, and waiting for CO to update it pain enough- yes, admittedly, with how update works it makes such moot, yet it removes any possibility of hitting targets immediately after TEP, which is a bit annoying. Minor is 60 minutes, Major is 90. Time is of the essence.

Secondly, I have never seen anything like this- not even in WZT, where 3 taggers could be half the WAs on their delegate at any one time, can 4 endos make the difference in an operation? Yeah, sure. It has in the past, but we have more than 400 endos on our delegate, we are in the range where it’s practically impossible to do much beyond a delbump, and that can be dealt with very quickly. More of a matter of inconvenience than something which actually threatens us.

  1. If 2-3 jumps can be done in 4 minutes then a final switch sounds really quick and easy. I know when I updated regularly, I was always able to do it.

  2. The legislation does not say you have to update in TEP, it says you have to move WA back after update.

It’s not about any operation, it’s about predictable WA status. The longer we let people keep their WA hidden, the more of a threat they become, and ultimately any time period we impose is arbitrary, so we might as well just choose the most logical one.

As to @Dremaur’s point on the grace period – if someone is updating every day, even for just one operation each, that gives them full authority to put their WA anywhere else forever.

  1. Right now at this moment
  2. 3 since I joined in Jan 2025
  3. Once a month
  4. 10-12 residents, citizenship wise closer to 5

Our experiences seem vastly different which may be why we see things so differently

Hm. How long do they typically last?

Mostly 2 weeks, although if we go for larger operations - think contested frontiers, it could be up to a month.

Generally military practice is not to overrun over a month because all your partners want to do their own thing too

How about a clause where the Overseeing Officer must report the roll call of any operation lasting longer than two updates, in the thread, and otherwise EPSA soldiers must return their WA to TEP at least once every 24 hours? Does that solve both issues on the military side?

I think it’s feasible for OO to report rollcall after the operation (is that what you mean?).

For example we’re on day 3 of the operation and I’m still poking Cyber and Atlae to join in.

I mean during – so we know if xyz people are accounted for and xyz people aren’t.

During would definitely be near impossible. The first 24 hours we’d be drumming up DMs to get people in, the second day we’d realistically have most people in, and all the way for the first week we’d have stragglers we’d be pushing in.

It’d be harsh to keep editing-editing-editing a growing list.

I would counterpropose that since all operations go through RAO - the notification to RAO should also be forwarded to Viziers to know that an operation has started. The EPSA status would mean every single member is expected to be deployed.
(And command does push for every member to pile in)

Afterwards the OO would publish the rollcall list, which should tally with all the EPSA members that dropped WA. If there are gaps, can ring up OO to check if OO counted correctly, or if there’s a real xyz who vanished AWOL