The following agora took place between the 13th of February, 2021, and the 20th of February, 2021. The moderators were Sammy23, Nociav (Askar), and Aivintis. The participants were Sammy, Nociav, and Indian Genius (IG). The entire agora was done in an RP-esque manner with the setting being a bar.
Nociav
Hello!! It has been a long time since you last came here. I have right here your favourite beer, I hope you enjoy it as in the good old days. Time might pass, but drinking some beverages with friends is something that hasn’t changed in millennia. Imagine if some of those ancient people could come right now to where we are and could witness how much and also how little things have changed from their times. For one or the other reason, they would definitely impressed, am I right?
I’ve been on a certain mood these days: some friend who is a true nerd of ancient thingies recommended me to read the Epic of Gilgamesh and… Wow. It’s like, if I remember correctly, 5,000 years old, and they still talk about “in those old days when bread was first baked”. The characters had the same worries we have today: “what happens when we die?” “Will we be remembered by those who come after us?” The people in this epic were all the time trying to get into memorable adventures or even searching for the source of immortality itself. And you know, I also feel that we keep on looking, if not for immortality, at least to last in people’s memory. Isn’t actually memory immortal? Look at how we’re reading things from people that died 5 millennia ago: what are your thoughts?
Opening Statements
Indian Genius
Indian Idiot orders for a beer and then starts to smoke. After having a glass of beer, II was rejuvenated to IG. “Oh, good beer. Now, that’s an interesting topic.” He started saying.
“Well, to be honest, I am against the ‘memory legacy’ cringy thingy. As far as my Physics and Biology books say, our bodies are full of neurons and they all transmit electrons and from one neuron to other to control the body. Hormones also help doing things and tinging the sensations. Now, if dudes Heisenberg and Einstein are correct, energy can only be passed by discrete quanta and it is impossible to know exactly where it is going if we know how fast it is going and vice versa. Well, in my opinion, and maybe many neurologists’ opinions, memory is stored in our brains and are organized quanta of energy. After our death, the energy goes disorganized and everything goes haywire and everything is gone. And that’s it.”
Nociav
Askar wanders over to the table and listens to Indian. After Indian concludes, Askar begins his opening statement.
Our memory and legacy are two things that have been discussed for as long as history has been recorded. The Pharaohs of Egypt always wanted the prestige of having the largest pyramid due to the legacy it would create. I for one, do not believe our legacy or memory matters. While a part of me wishes to be remembered like Caesar or the many religious Prophets and holy men, I still reason that I am far less worthy of being remembered. I know many people who were greater men than me but their names are only known to a select few.
Askar orders a glass of ginger beer, waiting to hear other people’s opening statements.
Sammy
Sammy hears the name of Gilgamesh and runs towards the conversation. In the process, he almost spills the tea he was drinking.
Well, there’s also something Indo-Europeans believed, and that was that there was nothing but a grey life after death, so we should put all our efforts in what we’re living now. I don’t know at all what’s beyond the moment you die, but I do know, or I believe I know what I’m living now. That’s why we should do our best today, regardless of what happens tomorrow.
Horace once wrote “carpe diem”, “harvest the day”: a quote that memory has brought to us, but remembers us that we’re nothing but what we are now. And that’s precisely why memory is a useful tool for us, so we remember that we’re the same people that were 2000 years ago in our same place, and that we should follow their advise: try to reach great things, yes, but remember that we don’t know what’s gonna happen tomorrow, so we must enjoy this day as the last one
Cross Examination
Indian Genius
“Mates,” IG told, “I guess we are getting drifted away from the main question. The question was, ‘isn’t memory actually immortal?’ In my opinion, no, it isn’t. Simply put, do we remember all the memories ever thought by everyone in history? Are all those memories recorded anywhere? Are memories of each and every person who died in famines stored anywhere? If you consider memories as abstract energy, then yes, that’s immortal if you call it. But if you consider memories as records or compact energy, then no, that just gets degenerates when we die. Anyways, I haven’t had butterbeer ginger beer for a long time, bartender, can I get one?”
Nociav
Askar thinks for a moment before answering.
Indian, the central question is how we want our personal legacy. Nontheless, your opinion is certainly unique. Indeed, everything can be boiled down to atoms. However, it is theoritically possible to look at the atoms and see back in time by reversing the interactions that took place.But I am unqualified to talk about atomic physics and will leave that there.
I will ask you a question. I assume from your opinion that you do not care about what memory of you gets left behind. I have to ask why. Do you not want to be remembered like Ceasar or Cicero? This is an assumption so do correct me if I am wrong.
Now Sam. Your knowledge of Indo-Europeans is certainly beyond mine but I have to ask the same question. I assume you don’t regard your legacy as very important from the general feeling I have about your response. Why? Surely a part of you wants to be remembered like Alexander the Great or Octavian.
I look forward to hearing both your thoughts and to hearing your questions on mine.
Indian Genius
*“Well,” IG said as he took a sip from his ginger beer, "the ginger beer’s good! Anyways, Askar, just tell me why would I like to get remembered? I would love to get remembered as a great guy like Alexander or Caesar or Gandhi, but the thing is, it simply does not matter, at least, not after I die. Now, let me elaborate my opinion.
I don;t know if you would agree with me or not, but I believe we have only one life and that we don’t have any soul and we do not reincarnate. Now, in my opinion, life is simply an illusion, yes, it is simply an illusion. What are our feelings? They are just electrical and hormonal disruptions within our body, that is it. Therefore, our feelings, as we feel they are real, they are not, they are just a complex chemistry and nothing else. And same for our senses. And what are we? We are only a complex biological robot who acts as a mechanism for reproduction of the same kind, it might take time to realize this as this is too overwhelming, but this is true, isn’t it?
Therefore, I believe that the whole world is a big party and we are only here to get drunk. Or, more simply, I believe that our only aim should be to have fun. And, you might mistaken me for implying that I mean only carnal affairs as “fun”, that’s completely false. I mean, though very few people realize this, there is more fun in doing virtuous things than doing carnal things. In my opinion, there is more fun in doing any work diligently and being successful than cheating and being successful; there is more fun in going right through the levels of a game by working hard rather than using cheats; it is more fun giving things to people than snatching from them.
Now, you might think that why am I telling all those things and how are they related to your question, isn’t it? Well, in my opinion, being remembered in history is just one of the many human desires and I would love to get remembered in history as a great dude, but in the end, it doesn’t simply matter."
Sammy
Sips a bit of tea and answers Askar’s question
Cicero, as a follower of Stoicism among other Hellenistic trends, believed in being remembered for contributing actively to your society. I personally think he bragged a lot about his actions, but still he shows what that ideal is. You can also find it in Marcus Aurelius. Stoics bring up their opinion on how to be remembered, and I bring the question on how we should be meant to be remembered. Personally, if I wanted to be remembered or leave a legacy in people’s memory, I’d want that to be because of my good actions towards the community, so in that sense I agree with stoicism.
However, you guys have also mentioned Alexander. One of Alexander’s references was Achilles, from who, according to his mother’s genealogy, he descended from. Probably this was just another attempt by aristocratic families to justify their positions, and that’s what Alexander did actively representing himself as descendent of Achilles, on the one hand, and Heracles, and hence Zeus, on the other hand.
But I am getting off the topic. Alexander focused on these aspects because he believed the greatest part of legacy and memory was showing one’s ἀρετή, virtue, with a truly more individualistic vision of legacy. That’s what the Diadochoi inherited from his ideology and used to justify their dynasties: they had been Alexander’s companion and had received his legacy. That’s also what Achilles shows in the Illiad: he departed for war not to defend his people or his family, but to show his own value and virtue in the fight and die honourably.
So if you do want to be remembered, what would be more important? Being remembered by what you did yourself, or by what you have done for your community? I am getting a bit off the original question, but I think it’s necessary to indicate the complexity of our concepts about memory.
Nociav
Askar responds first to Indian.
In many ways, yes our legacies and memories are irrelevant to the greater universe but we, as humans, experience emotions. You believe emotions, senses, and everything else living is just a way to create anotger liv8ng being. Of course that’s what we are fundamentally but we are practically much more than that. We, human beings, feel and think differently to each other. Our legacy is a way to change minds. Machiavelli changed the course of history with one simple treatise. His legacy was his treatise. Socrates changed philosophy forever and his legacy was his thoughts. Our legacies do have practical value. We can change history for better or for worse with it. That is why our legacies do matter.
Askar responds to Sam next.
I would personally like to be remembered for both what I did for myself and what I did for my community.
Naturally, I, as a human, want to do everything I can for myself. Building myself to be a great man is no easy task. I would like to invoke the example of Hannibal. He did a lot more for himself than for Carthage. He did fight under the banner of Carthage but he lead the campaign himself and did so because of his oath to forever be an enemy of Rome. Hannibal is an example of a great man through doing what he saw best for himself. His goal was to crush Rome and although he failed, he did do the best out of all men in history and did succeed for himself their.
As for doing for my community. Helping your community typically outlives doing for yourself since communities live on past your death. I say Otto Von Bismarcke is an example of a man who did for his community, Germany. Before him, Germany was disunited and weak. Through incredible efforts to unify and strenghten Germany, Bismarcke forever ingrained himself in German history. As the man who aided incredibly in German unification, Bismarcke will never be fotgotten by the Germans. His legacy is far more secure than most people who build themselves.
Naturally, I want to be both but I would prefer to be remembered by the community I helped since that legacy is everlasting.
But Sam, you’ve made me talk for too long. What would you rather be remembered for and why?
Sammy
Sam smiles
Exactly, long talks is what I came here for. And this is also the point I wanted to arrive to. I feel in two ways about how to show the best version of myself: first and most important, what I stated about living in the best way you can for yourself and your people, and second, to leave a legacy, more than for yourself, which is still important, also for your community. As you’ve said, that legacy will stand way longer, and a community legacy will also automatically create a self legacy. I would then pursue first my well-being than my legacy, and about the legacy, a community one instead of a personal one. But all of them at once if possible.
As they’re interrelated, I would then rather look to make a legacy in something I know that I will enjoy doing, instead of an impossible mission (even if it succeeds at the end). I’ve seen myself into enough impossible missions in this life, I wanna be more relaxed from now, hahaha. That way, either if I succeed in my purposes or not, my soul will be sure of how I’ve pushed hard for my targets and, regardless of reaching them or not, I’ll have joy for sure in my life. It would be a win-win that way. Do not try for the sake of trying, try with a clear target, but overall, make your path beautiful.
Closing Statements
Indian Genius
IG gets his last cup of rum before standing up and hugging Sammy and Askar. He then said, “Well, I have had a good talk with you guys. Memory and legacy, they may not be too much in the sense of the greater universe except just a few here-and-there of particles, but in the community of Homo Sapiens, it is definitely worth it.” He concludes and starts to hum as he goes out of the bar as it closes.
Nociav
Askar smiles.
I enjoyed talking about this. I believed that my legacy doesn’t matter in the beginning but I have shifted slightly. It’s definitely worth it to try your best in your community and maybe, if you do enough, your legacy will continue like that. Regardless of my musings. I’ve definitely learned other viewpoints.
Askar shakes Sam’s hand and walks with IG.
Sammy
Sam hugs them both:
I don’t know if we will leave a legacy to this world, but for sure I’m having a good time meanwhile, and that’s in a great part thanks to be surrounded by amazing people like you both. As Cicero said about friends, “what can ever be sweeter than having who you dare to talk about everything as you would do with yourself?” Conversation is what makes us fully humans, and the way our legacy will last through. It has been a good time. See you in UTEP!!!