Change to the Endorsement Cap Act

Llo · April 20, 2019, 9:51pm

— Begin quote from ____

Unless I am mistaken, doesn’t this effectively defeat the purpose of having Viziers in the first place? Aren’t they supposed to exist in order to “maintain regional stability”?

— End quote

In a perfect world, our Viziers would be a lot more proactive than they are, but many have fallen into stagnancy or a state of complacency.

Ideally, we’d have a more effective way to remove Viziers for more-or-less dereliction of duty, but the current legal hoops to do that would be annoying. While I think that’s a route to pursue eventually, I believe raising the endorsement cap of Cabinet members to 500 would allow for more proactive security officials to maintain a greater impact on regional security. If we want to take a Vizier-positive approach to this, it would also let the Viziers save even more Regional Influence for when more problematic threats arise than the sort of marsupials folks like Davelands and myself have been dispatching

— End quote

If this is the case, then this proposal is simply a bandaid solution. If Viziers aren’t willing to do, what, their only job (?), then they literally have no purpose. I’m struggling to understand how we can consider it to be a ‘retirement’ job and also expect them to be bothered to do anything.

Tim · April 20, 2019, 9:56pm

— Begin quote from ____

Unless I am mistaken, doesn’t this effectively defeat the purpose of having Viziers in the first place? Aren’t they supposed to exist in order to “maintain regional stability”?

— End quote

In a perfect world, our Viziers would be a lot more proactive than they are, but many have fallen into stagnancy or a state of complacency.

Ideally, we’d have a more effective way to remove Viziers for more-or-less dereliction of duty, but the current legal hoops to do that would be annoying. While I think that’s a route to pursue eventually, I believe raising the endorsement cap of Cabinet members to 500 would allow for more proactive security officials to maintain a greater impact on regional security. If we want to take a Vizier-positive approach to this, it would also let the Viziers save even more Regional Influence for when more problematic threats arise than the sort of marsupials folks like Davelands and myself have been dispatching

If this is the case, then this proposal is simply a bandaid solution. If Viziers aren’t willing to do, what, their only job (?), then they literally have no purpose. I’m struggling to understand how we can consider it to be a ‘retirement’ job and also expect them to be bothered to do anything.

— End quote

I personally don’t think Vizier should be considered a retirement job, and don’t think people who go into the position with that mindset are a very good fit for it. Vizier should be more than a sleepy security position. I’d say sleepy high-endo security position, but we’ve got one of our Viziers not even at the endorsement cap. At the very least, there should be some Viziers who are more proactive in their job, to compensate for dormant ones who have their feet up and are effectively unable to be recalled (for now)

Bachtendekuppen · April 21, 2019, 6:57am

Again, not sure what the problem here is. Yet another discussion about Viziers without any clear goal or complaint except some vague statements about supposed inactivity or retirement, nor any actual explanation about what is wrong with current endocaps that they need changing, or actually any effort at all in taking in to account and using actual TEP law.

For all this high-horsing about Viziers, maybe some more effort and actual thinking could go in to these discussions. The Magisterium isn’t doing any better lately than the Viziers being complained about.

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Zukchiva · April 22, 2019, 12:37pm

Going a bit off topic here. But the discussion I mentioned was to a)clean up the Endorsement Cap Act a bit and b) propose a higher Non-Delegate endorsement cap. I mention it here because this discussion could’ve been bought up there instead.

Back on topic, I believe the problem here is interpretation. Some people believe the Viziers are doing fine as they are, others believe Viziers need to be proactive.

Viziers need to save their influence. They are the big influence savers to deal with false Delegates taking the seat in-game and people other (normal) ROs cannot take care of. Which is what they are doing. It is nearly impossible to gain 300 endorsements in a day, from 400 to 700 endos needed to take the Delegate seat gameside, so Viziers do not need to be jumpy and on the alert 24/7.

So I don’t believe the cabinet is de facto Viziers, they are more the auxiliary force ejecting and banning low influence endo-cap violators do Viziers can keep their influence levels up for the very high influence holding people. The kind of people that non-Vizier ROs cannot eject, even with no ejections or bans, because Viziers have kept heightened influence levels due to years of high levels of endorsements and residency.

Being that Ministers (who commonly hold RO positions) are given a +50 endorsement cap (until the recent rendition of the act because I made a mistake, which I am going to motion since no one is talking there >.>), I believe that it is enough endorsements to deal with endorsement cap violators.

And should non-Vizier ROs be unable to eject or ban, we can simply approach Viziers asking for help, and they will deliver. As an example, just last week, Fedele issued a eject (and ban, I think?) on 6+ endorsement cap violators. Two Viziers responded swiftly, and most of the violators, if not all (haven’t checked yet), are gone from TEP.

So therefore, we do have “proactive Viziers”, but I honestly think the current system is fine and working well. While increasing the Senior Executive cap could help in the cabinet’s role in taking care of the low level influence violators, it is not needed.

Complacency does come from decreasing alertness. However, I believe we currently are alert enough for a 700+ endorsing the Delegate, with the average Vizier holding 500 endorsements. So again, I believe everything concerning endorsements is, so far, fine.

Side note: I agree with Bach, the Magisterium is a bit inactive. I will try to fix that during this Magisterium.

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Todd_McCloud · April 22, 2019, 11:51pm

I’d be against another increase in the cap. While I am thankful that TEP has become very active with respect to endorsements and has a healthy endorsement lead for the delegate (who now sports a pretty cool flag!), I think if we keep increasing the lead, we’ll eventually lessen the impact of the viziers here.

The current list of viziers include Aelitia (565), Bachtendekuppen (502), ASBS (572), myself (523), and Hobbes (377), if I’m not mistaken. Hobbes definitely should increase his count, and I will speak to him on that, but I do know the other four have been active in maintaining their count above the cutoff line. Is there anything we can do to help out?

Zukchiva · April 24, 2019, 10:57am

Seeing that no discussion (for a month!) Have occurred, and issues about the nonactivity of this thread popping out, has made me realize this should probably move forward or forever rest in peace.

Therefore, I motion this to vote.

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Davelands · April 24, 2019, 6:32pm

Second

Todd_McCloud · April 24, 2019, 11:51pm

Sorry… I know I’m late to the party, and I don’t know if it’s too late to discuss, but “Delegate-Friendly” and “Non-Delegate-Friendly” endo caps aren’t defined in Section III. We can’t introduce new terms without first defining them!

Zukchiva · April 25, 2019, 8:44pm

— Begin quote from ____

BE IT ENACTED by the Magisterium of the East Pacific:

SECTION I. TITLE

…1.1-This act shall be known and cited as the “Endorsement Caps Act”.

SECTION II. FINDINGS

…2.1 The Magisterium finds that:
…2.1.1- The stability of the in-game region is largely dependent on the influence and endorsement levels of the Delegate and Viziers,
…2.1.2- Endorsements and Influence remain crucial tools with which to determine the in-game delegacy,
…2.1.3- It is prudent that The East Pacific maintain flexibile endorsement caps to reflect the cultural initiatives and security situation of the region.

SECTION III. DEFINITIONS

…3.1- For the purposes of this act, the following terms are defined as:
…3.1.1- Region- “the NationStates region of The East Pacific”;
…3.1.2- Nation- “a nation within region, regardless of citizenship status”;
…3.1.3- Qualified Endorsement Cap- “a cap, with a qualifier to be subjected to it, that is set by the Delegate and confirmed by the Magisterium”;
…3.1.4- Delegate-Friendly Endorsement Cap- “A Qualified Endorsement Cap setting a specific amount of endorsements for nations endorsing the Delegate.”
…3.1.5- Non-Delegate-Friendly Endorsement Cap- “A Qualified Endorsement Cap setting a specific amount of endorsements for nations not endorsing the Delegate.”

SECTION IV. ENDORSEMENT CAPS

…4.1- The Delegate is empowered to propose to the Magisterium any number of Qualified Endorsement Caps, which shall be ratified by a majority vote. A proposal for a Qualified Endorsement Cap must include the following: a simple title, the qualification for that cap, and the number (or numbers) targeted by the proposed Cap.

…4.2- No Qualified Endorsement Cap may exceed the number of current Delegate Endorsements for any reason.

…4.3- Qualified Endorsement Caps may be repealed in the following ways:
…4.3.1- At the request of the Delegate, with a majority vote of the Magisterium; or
…4.3.2- Without the consent of the Delegate with a 2/3 majority vote of the Magisterium.

SECTION V. GENERAL PROVISIONS

…5.1- The Delegate must display the current numerical value of all Qualified Endorsement Caps the Non-Delegate-Friendly and Delegate-Friendly Endorsement Caps on the Region’s World Factbook Entry.

…5.2- The Delegate and the Viziers are not subject to any Qualified Endorsement Caps.

…5.3- The Delegate, any Vizier, member of the Eastern Pacific Police Service, or other designee of the Executive may choose to act as a Compliance Officer for the purposes of this Act.

…5.4- The top four endorsed Viziers shall be entitled to the in-game Regional Officer power “Border Control” if they opt-in to act on an ejection or banishment order made under this Act by the Delegate. The Delegate may revoke this power if the Vizier refuses a legitimate ejection or banishment order under this Act.

SECTION VI. VIOLATIONS OF ENDORSEMENT CAPS

…6.1- Any nation found to be doing the following commits a summary offence:
…6.1.1- Maintaining endorsements in excess of the endorsement cap to which it is subject;
…6.1.2- Soliciting additional endorsements beyond the endorsement cap to which it is subject.

…6.2- To enforce a banishment or ejection under this act, the offending nation must be “Notified” by a Compliance Officer via a ‘tag’ on a publicly available list of offenders for at least 3 days.

…6.3- Any nation, having been under Notice in accordance with 6.2 and remaining in violation of this Act shall be subject to summary ejection OR banishment. Citizens reserve the right to to appeal to Conclave.

…6.4- Any nation, found soliciting additional endorsements beyond the applicable endorsement cap while under Notice in accordance with 6.1 shall be subject to summary ejection OR banishment. Citizens reserve the right to to appeal to Conclave.
…6.4.1- The Delegate must submit notice of this action to the Conclave.

…6.5- The Delegate may temporarily suspend punitive action under this Act if the offending nation has proven a willingness to comply with the cap, at the Delegate’s discretion.

SECTION VII. ENACTMENT

…7.1- This bill shall be enacted upon its signature by the Delegate, except if the Magisterium votes to override a veto of this bill by the Delegate.

…7.2- Upon Enactment of this bill, the Simplified Endorsement Cap Act is repealed.

…7.3- Upon Enactment of this bill, the following Qualified Endorsement Caps are established until their repeal or replacement:
…7.3.1- The “Non-Delegate-Friendly Endorsement Cap” shall cap the endorsements for nations not endorsing the Delegate at 10.
…7.3.2- The “Delegate-Friendly Endorsement Cap” shall cap the endorsements for nations endorsing the Delegate at 400.
…7.3.3- The “Government Officer Endorsement Cap” shall cap the endorsements for Magisters, Arbiters, and certified Executive Staff endorsing the Delegate at 375.. at 25 endorsements above the “Delegate-Friendly Endorsement Cap”.
…7.3.4- The “Senior Officers Endorsement Cap” shall cap the endorsements for Executive Staff Ministers, EPPS Senior Officials, and EPSA Generals endorsing the Delegate at 400 at 50 endorsements above the “Delegate-Friendly Endorsement Cap”.

— End quote

Let’s change it then!

— End quote

It’s not too late. Ye, we already got a motion but the vote didn’t start yet

Here we go.

Does it work, Todd?

Bachtendekuppen · April 26, 2019, 9:39pm

I have two more suggestions.

If we’re delving in to definitions, I believe “Executive Staff Ministers” is not a defined term, nor a term known in TEP law, either. I would suggest changing that to “members of the Curia, and any executive appointee thereof”. This would mean the FA Minister, the Regional Affairs Minister, and the EPSA General, and any Executive staff they appoint.
I have an additional amendment to this amendment to propose. A while back we had a discussion regarding Viziers, their task, and accountability. I made the suggestion to add a provision to the Endorsement Cap Act, instead of to the Concordat, as an alternative solution.

I would therefore propose to add an article 5.5 :

— Begin quote from ____

…5.5. Any Vizier having less than 50 endorsements above the Delegate-Friendly Endorsement Cap longer than 72 hours shall be regarded as absent and can be removed by the Conclave.

— End quote

Fedele · April 26, 2019, 9:55pm

That’s all very sensible.

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Todd_McCloud · April 27, 2019, 11:54pm

I like those definitions, those satisfy me!

I have a suggestion on the vizier thing - the Magisterium has a LOA option for folks who will be gone for an extended period of time. Would we be able to implement one of those for the vizier qualifier too? I just worry about the following scenario: a delegate-friendly endo cap is adjusted +50, and it ends up eclipsing a vizier. Unless they’re checking often, they might miss the 72 hour window to extend their endorsement count!

Bachtendekuppen · April 28, 2019, 9:30am

Wait we have two debates on changes to the Endorsement Caps Act, which is sometimes confusing. Can’t we merge these proposals and vote once on all changes together?

Zukchiva · April 28, 2019, 10:46am

We could, but in that case I would personally prefer to just continue using this thread.

However, if need be, I do believe I can actually merge the threads if that’s what you mean.

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Bachtendekuppen · April 28, 2019, 1:02pm

I think that wouldn’t be a bad idea.

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Zukchiva · April 28, 2019, 5:21pm

With the magic of forum moderation, the two topics have been merged into one, large if not better, topic.

I’ll get the newer version of the amendment here, gimmie a few minutes.

Zukchiva · April 28, 2019, 5:32pm

— Begin quote from ____

BE IT ENACTED by the Magisterium of the East Pacific:

SECTION I. TITLE

…1.1-This act shall be known and cited as the “Endorsement Caps Act”.

SECTION II. FINDINGS

…2.1 The Magisterium finds that:
…2.1.1- The stability of the in-game region is largely dependent on the influence and endorsement levels of the Delegate and Viziers,
…2.1.2- Endorsements and Influence remain crucial tools with which to determine the in-game delegacy,
…2.1.3- It is prudent that The East Pacific maintain flexibile endorsement caps to reflect the cultural initiatives and security situation of the region.

SECTION III. DEFINITIONS

…3.1- For the purposes of this act, the following terms are defined as:
…3.1.1- Region- “the NationStates region of The East Pacific”;
…3.1.2- Nation- “a nation within region, regardless of citizenship status”;
…3.1.3- Qualified Endorsement Cap- “a cap, with a qualifier to be subjected to it, that is set by the Delegate and confirmed by the Magisterium”;
…3.1.4- Delegate-Friendly Endorsement Cap- “A Qualified Endorsement Cap setting a specific amount of endorsements for nations endorsing the Delegate.”
…3.1.5- Non-Delegate-Friendly Endorsement Cap- “A Qualified Endorsement Cap setting a specific amount of endorsements for nations not endorsing the Delegate.”

SECTION IV. ENDORSEMENT CAPS

…4.1- The Delegate is empowered to propose to the Magisterium any number of Qualified Endorsement Caps, which shall be ratified by a majority vote. A proposal for a Qualified Endorsement Cap must include the following: a simple title, the qualification for that cap, and the number (or numbers) targeted by the proposed Cap.

…4.2- No Qualified Endorsement Cap may exceed the number of current Delegate Endorsements for any reason.

…4.3- Qualified Endorsement Caps may be repealed in the following ways:
…4.3.1- At the request of the Delegate, with a majority vote of the Magisterium; or
…4.3.2- Without the consent of the Delegate with a 2/3 majority vote of the Magisterium.

SECTION V. GENERAL PROVISIONS

…5.1- The Delegate must display the current numerical value of all Qualified Endorsement Caps the Non-Delegate-Friendly and Delegate-Friendly Endorsement Caps on the Region’s World Factbook Entry.

…5.2- The Delegate and the Viziers are not subject to any Qualified Endorsement Caps.

…5.3- The Delegate, any Vizier, member of the Eastern Pacific Police Service, or other designee of the Executive may choose to act as a Compliance Officer for the purposes of this Act.

…5.4- The top four endorsed Viziers shall be entitled to the in-game Regional Officer power “Border Control” if they opt-in to act on an ejection or banishment order made under this Act by the Delegate. The Delegate may revoke this power if the Vizier refuses a legitimate ejection or banishment order under this Act.

…5.5. Any Vizier having less than 50 endorsements above the Delegate-Friendly Endorsement Cap for more than 1 week longer than 72 hours shall be regarded as absent and can be removed by the Conclave.

SECTION VI. VIOLATIONS OF ENDORSEMENT CAPS

…6.1- Any nation found to be doing the following commits a summary offence:
…6.1.1- Maintaining endorsements in excess of the endorsement cap to which it is subject;
…6.1.2- Soliciting additional endorsements beyond the endorsement cap to which it is subject.

…6.2- To enforce a banishment or ejection under this act, the offending nation must be “Notified” by a Compliance Officer via a ‘tag’ on a publicly available list of offenders for at least 3 days.

…6.3- Any nation, having been under Notice in accordance with 6.2 and remaining in violation of this Act shall be subject to summary ejection OR banishment. Citizens reserve the right to to appeal to Conclave.

…6.4- Any nation, found soliciting additional endorsements beyond the applicable endorsement cap while under Notice in accordance with 6.1 shall be subject to summary ejection OR banishment. Citizens reserve the right to to appeal to Conclave.
…6.4.1- The Delegate must submit notice of this action to the Conclave.

…6.5- The Delegate may temporarily suspend punitive action under this Act if the offending nation has proven a willingness to comply with the cap, at the Delegate’s discretion.

SECTION VII. ENACTMENT

…7.1- This bill shall be enacted upon its signature by the Delegate, except if the Magisterium votes to override a veto of this bill by the Delegate.

…7.2- Upon Enactment of this bill, the Simplified Endorsement Cap Act is repealed.

…7.3- Upon Enactment of this bill, the following Qualified Endorsement Caps are established until their repeal or replacement:
…7.3.1- The “Non-Delegate-Friendly Endorsement Cap” shall cap the endorsements for nations not endorsing the Delegate at 10.
…7.3.2- The “Delegate-Friendly Endorsement Cap” shall cap the endorsements for nations endorsing the Delegate at 400.
…7.3.3- The “Government Officer Endorsement Cap” shall cap the endorsements for Magisters, Arbiters, and certified Executive Staff endorsing the Delegate at 375.. at 25 endorsements above the “Delegate-Friendly Endorsement Cap”.
…7.3.4- The “Senior Officers Endorsement Cap” shall cap the endorsements for members of the Curia, and any executive appointee thereof, Executive Staff Ministers, EPPS Senior Officials, and EPSA Generals endorsing the Delegate at 400 at 50 endorsements above the “Delegate-Friendly Endorsement Cap”. D

— End quote

Alright, will be setting up the vote.

This is the final form of the law: changed 5.5 to 1 week instead of 72 hours, and removed “to to” in 6.4 and “at at” in 7.3.4

Bachtendekuppen · April 28, 2019, 5:45pm

Great work Zuk!

As for the Viziers and LOA, an option would be to give more than 72 hours time to accommodate for temporary absences?

Fedele · April 28, 2019, 6:57pm

Are they automatically removed or are they removed at the discretion of the Conclave?

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Bachtendekuppen · April 28, 2019, 6:59pm

At the discretion of the Conclave. This merely clarifies that this could be regarded as absence, and therefore the Conclave - could - remove them, but is not obligated to if they judge it not justified for removal.