At the very least, I think the position of Delegate should not be legislated in terms of how much control they have over guiding the Ministries.
I’m glad that the Magisterium is changing the legislation. It’s awesome to see debate. At the very least, this boost of activity can increase activity in the long term.
Sent from my SM-J327P using Tapatalk
— Begin quote from ____
First of all, I’m very happy about the thorough debate in the Magisterium.
I would like to add some general elements to consider regarding the proposals being worked out for electing ministers. Secondly, I would like to list some practical issues to consider.
As it stands, there’s two ways the Magisterium can go here. Either a cabinet is (mostly) appointed, or (mostly) elected. The role of the Delegate differs between these two types of cabinets. An appointed cabinet offers the advantage of speed, loyalty to and control by the Delegate, one ultimate responsible party (the Delegate) and cohesion of policy. An elected cabinet offers the advantages that the ministers are more independent, have an explicit democratic mandate for the policies they are implementing, and have a specific term.
Both have their disadvantages as well.
An appointed cabinet means that every other delegate can (re)shape the Executive however he/she wants, fire ministers at will, and is only accountable directly to the Citizens of TEP. Such flexibility comes with an inherent instability, which we have witnessed in this region before. The Executive stands or falls with the aptitude of the Delegate at hand to organize it. An elected cabinet could lead to less cohesion in the cabinet, more political games, less control by the Delegate over Executive policy. Having a lot more elections could also impact continuity in the cabinet and Executive policy.
Both have advantages and disadvantages. I do like that this is going to a mixed form between both. That could prove interesting.
What worries me most, is that the proposed changes would require changing a lot of legislation :
That is a huge legislative effort.
As to the specifics now.
Changes to the Executive;
Abolishing the ministry of Design is a good point. I wonder, besides a Ministry of Culture and the Ministry of Integration, do we need a Ministry of Information? Can that not be abolished too?
Making the UTEP independent seems good to me.
Elected positions.
If I understand this well, the Minister of Integration, the Minister of Culture, and the Chancellor of the UTEP would be elected. Why not add the Minister of Regional Affairs too? If the Ministry of Information is abolished, the related minister position does no longer exist.
This leaves the EPSA Overseeing Officer unelected, the Chief Officer of Justice (can’t that position be elected too?), the Minister of WA Affairs, and the Minister of FA.
Election process.
I think 5 days for nominations, and 3 days for elections, is too short. Why not week/week? I presume all Citizens could vote, without any further requirements?
I’m in favor of staggered elections, whereby the ministers would have 4 month-terms, but would start in the middle of a delegate term. As such, you have elections every two months.
Removal.
I’d say, removal by resigning, by a motion from the Delegate to the Magisterium, or by a motion of no confidence of a Magister, and by the end of the term. Letting all Citizens introduce such motions could create too much chaos/instability. No petition to the Conclave. A minister leaving the position early, in whatever way, should be replaced by a new election I believe, for the remainder of the original term. If you restrict the possibility for motions as above, that should be less of a problem.
In case of no candidate, the Delegate should be able to appoint someone at interim, until a new election is organized, or until the end of the original term.
— End quote
I think, that such a challenge will be a nice way to activize our Legislature even more. As our Magisters are really experienced people with a lot of knowledge, I believe, that we will deal with it. We, however, have to write some schedule on what goes first and what goes last.
I, however, have to disagree with abolishment of Ministry of Information. For as long as Ministry of Information is not mentioned as an independent body with its responsibilities mentioned in some act, I will be voting against any proposal for changes, even tho, I heartfully support those changes. You see, when I was making MoIN I had great ideas for that. And it was a long way - proposal of abolishment of EPNS Act, talking with Aelitia about legality of changes, talking with former WAD Yuno about formation of such a ministry, recruiting a lot of staff and working together on ambitions and targets of such a ministry. It was a long way to go, and I cannot agree for abolishment of such a meaninful and important ministry.
Regarding responsibilities of such a Ministry:
— Begin quote from ____
I. Writing newspaper, that would be mentioning Forum RolePlay, RMB RolePlay, Magisterium news, Foreign Affairs news and other events and happenings within our Region.
II. Creating guide-dispatches, that would be introducing newcomers to our region, guiding them, teaching some basic stuffs, such as “how to use forums”.
III. Creating welcoming messages - like the ones I post from time to time. Simple introduction to our region, welcoming message and suggestion for joining WA.
IV. Spreading pro-government propaganda and pro-WA propaganda.
V. Sharing interesting statistics with our region and giving some awards, to activize people (like North Pacific is doing with WA, their WA propaganda is fantastic and we should work on it too).
— End quote
As Magister [mention]Aleister[/mention] said, being designer is a creative job. You cannot demand someone to work whenever you want. If they don’t feel creative or like having idea (or skills), they just won’t be able to work. That being said, I agree with abolishment of Ministry of Design. There is two ways to go - either making Designer masking on Executive Server and pinging Designers, if there is a job to be done or delegating them to Ministries in area of their interest.
As for Education, it should be abolished as well, as Design. However, University shall remain as an independent body. If it comes to ideas, I will fully let Magister Aleister share his thoughts, as he seemed to have some sensible and interesting ideas for this body. Arbiter [mention]Zukchiva[/mention] could be of use as well.
As for MoRA I have no thoughts, to be fair. As for Chief Officer of Justice, I do not agree with such a proposal. I consider Justice to be some demo version of Conclave, strictly related to region Security and following the Laws by our Residents. That being said, I believe that such a person should be strictly verified by other verfied people.
I agree with one elections per two months. I, however, think that week of nominations and week of elections is too long time. Considering, that our Conclave is always late with resultus, that would most likely be becoming a total of 3 weeks of elections process. How about 5 days of nominations and 5 days of elections? I think that it is more than enough for everyone to get nominated and vote.
“I’d say, removal by resigning, by a motion from the Delegate to the Magisterium, or by a motion of no confidence of a Magister, and by the end of the term. Letting all Citizens introduce such motions could create too much chaos/instability.” - if we are really going for Democracy, we really need to let our Citizens decide as well. I agree that anyone just constantly proposing vote of no confidence would cause chaos. However, if we were to expect such a proposal getting endorsements of our Citizens, that would make sense. How about 10 endorsements (of Citizens) for such a petition?
I wouldn’t mind reforming EPPS and merging Immigration with Information, since Information is generally taking most of Immigration’s traditional duty to guide newcomers in a region with this proposal.
Sent from my SM-J327P using Tapatalk
Information, in the past, ran the news service and created dispatches to keep the populace informed. I’d advocate for restoring this. I can think of three people off the top of my head who might run in an election for this ministry. This would be an enormously active ministry.
Sent from my BlackBerry Pearl using Tapatalk
I’m not ignoring the thread - I’m reading / assessing the situation!
Coming back to Libertanny’s post by post reply, I can add the following.
Regarding the Chief Officer of Justice
I thought this could perfectly be an elected position. The job is to uphold the law and bring cases to the Magisterium. A profile like this could be selected and chosen by the public. However should the other Magisters feel this is not necessary, it’s not a breaking point for me.
Regarding the election period
5 days could work.
Regarding motions by Citizens
I don’t agree with this. Motions have always been the prerogative of actual Magisters. Also, I believe it is necessary to limit this to Magisters for stability.
Given the comments of the other Magisters, I’m not against the Ministry of Information staying in place as it’s own Ministry.
If we can agree on the main principles, we could work out a schedule of legislation to be amended, added and remove, and determine the best order in which to proceed.
— Begin quote from ____
Regarding motions by Citizens
I don’t agree with this. Motions have always been the prerogative of actual Magisters. Also, I believe it is necessary to limit this to Magisters for stability.
— End quote
Oh, I think that we had misunderstanding here, as it is not something I thought about.
My idea was that, WAD / Magister / Arbiter can petition for vote of no confidence “just like that”, while Citizen holding no positions in TEP would be required to get estimately 5 signatures of other Citizens under his petition.
So simply:
— Begin quote from ____
Petition by WAD / Magister / Arbiter / Minister
— End quote
— Begin quote from ____
Petition by Citizen holding no offices
— End quote
That is simply, to decrease the number of petitions “because I dont like this person”.
We could start out with Bach’s suggestion. It can always be expanded to Serge’s suggestion if the need seems evident.
Sent from my BlackBerry Pearl using Tapatalk
— Begin quote from ____
We could start out with Bach’s suggestion. It can always be expanded to Serge’s suggestion if the need seems evident.
Sent from my BlackBerry Pearl using Tapatalk
— End quote
Works just fine for me.
On another note, we should begin brainstorm and plan our next moves, along with drawing some sketch of how we imagine electing Ministers.
Okay, so let’s sketch. The information is all over the place, but we have a basic idea of what we want, so let’s fill in the blanks.
First, I imagine that the Conclave would handle these elections in terms of the Viceroy, as they already hold elections for the Delegate, so I’ll be using the example of the Conclave in my sketch.
Voting Procedures
Removal Procedures
Positions for Repeated Election
Minister of Culture: Baseline duties (to be legislated/debated further), promote community events utilizing festival, games, and other applicable methods. Also to help promote the unique culture of the East Pacific within our community and within others.
Minister of Information: Baseline duties (to be legislated/debated further), Shall deal with all publications endorsed by the East Pacific (The Lotus Local, EPNS newspaper, Magisterial Courier, along with others. Shall also help integrate residents and citizens into the East Pacific.
Ministry of Integration: Baseline duties (to be legislated/debated further), to keep tabs on all nations who are endorsing the Delegate or not, keep an eye so that no nation bypasses the endorsement cap, and help in citizenship applications (since this was what immigration used to do, Minister is part of citcomm.) Shall also conduct intelligence operations and investigations by orders of the Delegate.
Chief Officer of Justice: Baseline duties (to be legislated/debated further), to investigate regional law on a constant basis and present it to the Conclave. In addition, to help Integration lead investigations on certain players (I forgot the duties for this position, but Ik it was talked about in the Conclave discussion thread. Also, still not sure if we’re agreeing to make this electable or not.)
University of the East Pacific
Chancellor Duties (To be Legislated/Debated Further
Chancellor: Shall try to add more publications to the Bachtendekuppen Library, and continue with the development of the University of the East Pacific to help provide for the education of TEP and NS as a whole on various subjects.
Appointed Positions
Upon each new Delegate being elected, they can remove or replace the people in these positions. However, replacements MUST be discussed and passed by a majority vote in the Magisterium.
Minister of Foreign Affairs: Baseline duties (to be legislated/debated further), to help maintain, establish, and develop foreign relations with other regions, as well as increasing TEP’s reputation amongst its allies. The ultimate authority is to Delegate.
Minister of the World Assembly: Baseline duties (to be legislated/debated further), shall help education TEP on the World Assembly resolutions, as well as providing advice to the Delegate for the way TEP shall vote on WA affairs. The ultimate authority is to Delegate.
Minister of Regional Affairs: Baseline duties (to be legislated/debated further), Minister tasked with helping other Ministers, guiding them in their tasks and providing whatever help they need or direct them to people who can provide help. Basically, a team leader.
Eastern Pacific Sovereign Army Overseeing Officer: Baseline duties (to be legislated/debated further), shall help maintain and develop the regional military of TEP, and carry out operations, with limitations based on law and the Delegate’s orders. Second-in-command to the Delegate.
Extra Processes
Things that need discussion:
Can the Delegate appoint non-Ministers into their cabinet? Should we legislate a process for that, or leave it up to the Delegate?
How are we going to legislate the duties of the Ministries? Are we even going to do that?
This sketch is based upon the summary of ideas Libertanny presented, as well as the changes proposed by Bachtendekuppen and our current election system for Delegates. So if something should be added, changed, or for the sake of future discussions, clarified, please say.
— Begin quote from ____
Voting Procedures
Quoting opinion of [mention]Aelitia[/mention] (tagging you, as your insight on the case can be useful here) on Delegate Elections:
“I can say if I were administrating an election, I would not consider a dispatch to be improper. Some mention on the RMB isn’t bad imo. The issue is when you’re using powers or abilities that is unfair to others. Think communications RO sending a campaign TG. Or using an endotarting tool to tag everyone in your dispatch. Also privately speaking to someone isn’t improper, as long as you’re not trading or promising them something I return for their vote- AND they seem to want the conversation.”
And that, I believe, should apply to Minister Elections as well.
2.4. The voting system must be clearly explained in the voting thread.
3. Within the next day, the Viceroy or designated person shall announce the results of the elections.
5. Following the announcement of results, the current Ministers who have lost reelection or have not run for the next term must hand in their resignation.
6. The Delegate must publicly announce on the forums (in a clear format, in one thread) of the new rooster of Ministers, and the term length that such Ministers will serve. (To help keep records).
7. Ministers shall serve for a term of exactly four months. It will be the duty of the Viceroy and the Conclave to monitor said term and notify the public and the Executive of the ending of the Ministers’ terms to help 8. potential candidates prepare for the new elections.
Removal Procedures
Positions for Repeated Election
Minister of Culture: Baseline duties (to be legislated/debated further), promote community events utilizing festival, games, and other applicable methods. Also to help promote the unique culture of the East Pacific within our community and within others.
Minister of Information: Baseline duties (to be legislated/debated further), Shall deal with all publications endorsed by the East Pacific (The Lotus Local, EPNS newspaper, Magisterial Courier, along with others. Shall also help integrate residents and citizens into the East Pacific. Shall as well prepare welcoming messages for newcometrs and welcoming dispatches.
Ministry of Integration: Baseline duties (to be legislated/debated further), to keep tabs on all nations who are endorsing the Delegate or not, keep an eye so that no nation bypasses the endorsement cap, and help in citizenship applications (since this was what immigration used to do, Minister is part of citcomm.)Shall also conduct intelligence operations and investigations by orders of the Delegate. Is it necessary? Dont we have Conclave and CMoJ for that?
Chief Officer of Justice: Baseline duties (to be legislated/debated further), to investigate regional law on a constant basis and present it to the Conclave. In addition, to help Integration lead investigations on certain players (I forgot the duties for this position, but Ik it was talked about in the Conclave discussion thread. Also, still not sure if we’re agreeing to make this electable or not.)
University of the East Pacific
Chancellor Duties (To be Legislated/Debated Further
Chancellor: Shall try to add more publications to the Bachtendekuppen Library, and continue with the development of the University of the East Pacific to help provide for the education of TEP and NS as a whole on various subjects.
As well as that, Chancellor should as well create an archive of regional newspapers on forums.
Appointed Positions
Upon each new Delegate being elected, they can remove or replace the people in these positions. However, replacements MUST be discussed and passed by a majority vote in the Magisterium.
Minister of Foreign Affairs: Baseline duties (to be legislated/debated further), to help maintain, establish, and develop foreign relations with other regions, as well as increasing TEP’s reputation amongst its allies. The ultimate authority is to Delegate.
Minister of the World Assembly: Baseline duties (to be legislated/debated further), shall help education TEP on the World Assembly resolutions, as well as providing advice to the Delegate for the way TEP shall vote on WA affairs. The ultimate authority is to Delegate.
Minister of Regional Affairs: Baseline duties (to be legislated/debated further), Minister tasked with helping other Ministers, guiding them in their tasks and providing whatever help they need or direct them to people who can provide help. Basically, a team leader.
Eastern Pacific Sovereign Army Overseeing Officer: Baseline duties (to be legislated/debated further), shall help maintain and develop the regional military of TEP, and carry out operations, with limitations based on law and the Delegate’s orders. Second-in-command to the Delegate.
My strong suggestion is that, each of those positions should be nominated by WAD and voted by Magisterium.
Extra Processes
Things that need discussion:
Can the Delegate appoint non-Ministers into their cabinet? Should we legislate a process for that, or leave it up to the Delegate?
How are we going to legislate the duties of the Ministries? Are we even going to do that?
I hope so. We should write up list of responsibilities. If a Minister doesnt fulfil them, we may use it as a reaon to raise a vote of no confidence debate.
This sketch is based upon the summary of ideas Libertanny presented, as well as the changes proposed by Bachtendekuppen and our current election system for Delegates. So if something should be added, changed, or for the sake of future discussions, clarified, please say.
— End quote
As for now that’s all. I will write more during the weekend. I have only checked your proposal. I am still missing something there tho. But I am quite busy now. So please, wait for more.
Yellow - my annotations
Green - no changes
Red - against
I am all for elected ministers, It gives the people a choice as to who is in charge.
POWER TO THE PEOPLE
A list of things I am concerned/disagreed with:
I feel like Ministers should be allowed to campaign outside their thread. An idea that could also apply to Delegate elections is one telegram sent out by the Viceroy with a 300 word (or whatever) statement from each candidate to everyone in the region. I imagine for readability’s sake that they would each be in a spoiler - just an idea!
Wouldn’t instant runoff voting apply for multiple candidates? I know some people have had concerns about this, but it really is a very straight forward system and way more fair than a first-past-the-post system. In any case, it should be one or the other.
If there is one candidate, it should be more than 50%, not equal to or more. 6 in favour and 6 against is not a majority.
I don’t really understand the point of Ministers who have lost/not rerun for their positions being forced to resign. Shouldn’t that happen by default when they’re replaced?
The Viceroy should be responsible for announcing the elected Ministers and their terms (in fact, all electoral matters), not the Delegate.
I don’t see why a Minister wouldn’t be able to appeal a removal to the Conclave if the procedure was improper. For example, if the discussion period of their removal was effectively waived and they had insufficient time to defend themselves, which resulted in a slim Magisterium majority getting rid of them, they should be able to appeal that to the Conclave. Not really the place of the Conclave to determine whether they deserved to be removed, but for procedural matters specifically.
If one Minister position is vacated prior to a month before the next round of elections, they all go to a vote? Why not just host a by-election specifically for that role?
I don’t think the Minister of Information should oversee all the newspapers. I think what is key to them thriving is their independence from the government, though sort of pooling from their resources (e.g. assistance, advice) where needed - this is effectively my setup with Lotus Local currently. Perhaps its selfish, but I’d rather the control of it not be pulled from me.
The election model could work similar for the Chancellor in terms of vacancies. Either hold a by-election or have an interim Chancellor if within a month of the next Minister elections.
In relation to your questions:
I don’t think the Delegate should be allowed to appoint non-Ministers to their Cabinet. If we want to have elected roles so that there is more directly democratic control over certain areas of the region and to have more of a voice for citizens in the Cabinet, then letting the Delegate drown them out would deter from this.
I think a separate Act would be needed for the ministerial responsibilities. Putting them in the Concordat would make them too inflexible to the needs of the day, whereas integrating them into an existing Act would diminish their standalone importance. It’d probably be substantial enough to warrant its own one in any case.
— Begin quote from ____
— Begin quote from ____
Voting Procedures
Quoting opinion of [mention]Aelitia[/mention] (tagging you, as your insight on the case can be useful here) on Delegate Elections:
“I can say if I were administrating an election, I would not consider a dispatch to be improper. Some mention on the RMB isn’t bad imo. The issue is when you’re using powers or abilities that is unfair to others. Think communications RO sending a campaign TG. Or using an endotarting tool to tag everyone in your dispatch. Also privately speaking to someone isn’t improper, as long as you’re not trading or promising them something I return for their vote- AND they seem to want the conversation.”
And that, I believe, should apply to Minister Elections as well.
[bgcolor=#000000][bgcolor=#FFFFFF]Yep, I guess that makes sense. I’ll delete that owo. My thinking was that since we, in tradition, did it similarily for Delegate elections, we’d do the same for Minister elections. So I guess it’s fine.[/bgcolor][/bgcolor]
Seems Llo is supporting the system we use for Delegate elections. He isn’t particularily wrong either way. But ya, if we’re sticking to the system of “first pass the post” as Llo says, I’ll modify it.
2.4. The voting system must be clearly explained in the voting thread.
3. Within the next day, the Viceroy or designated person shall announce the results of the elections.
5. Following the announcement of results, the current Ministers who have lost reelection or have not run for the next term must hand in their resignation.
6. The Delegate must publicly announce on the forums (in a clear format, in one thread) of the new rooster of Ministers, and the term length that such Ministers will serve. (To help keep records).
7. Ministers shall serve for a term of exactly four months. It will be the duty of the Viceroy and the Conclave to monitor said term and notify the public and the Executive of the ending of the Ministers’ terms to help 8. potential candidates prepare for the new elections.
Removal Procedures
Positions for Repeated Election
Minister of Culture: Baseline duties (to be legislated/debated further), promote community events utilizing festival, games, and other applicable methods. Also to help promote the unique culture of the East Pacific within our community and within others.
Minister of Information: Baseline duties (to be legislated/debated further), Shall deal with all publications endorsed by the East Pacific (The Lotus Local, EPNS newspaper, Magisterial Courier, along with others. Shall also help integrate residents and citizens into the East Pacific. Shall as well prepare welcoming messages for newcometrs and welcoming dispatches. They way I see it, Information is literally taking over Immigration’s duties. Immigration was supposed to be the one making welcome messages, welcome dispatches, etc. So that’s what I meant by “helping integrate residents and citizens into the East Pacific”. Sorry for not being clear, but prepareing welcome guides was a part of that. 
Ministry of Integration: Baseline duties (to be legislated/debated further), to keep tabs on all nations who are endorsing the Delegate or not, keep an eye so that no nation bypasses the endorsement cap, and help in citizenship applications (since this was what immigration used to do, Minister is part of citcomm.)Shall also conduct intelligence operations and investigations by orders of the Delegate. Is it necessary? Dont we have Conclave and CMoJ for that? I mean, it could be done for that. But the CMoJ is meant to bring evidence to the Conclave, the Conclave isn’t supposed to dig deep and serach for evidence in criminal cases.
Chief Officer of Justice: Baseline duties (to be legislated/debated further), to investigate regional law on a constant basis and present it to the Conclave. In addition, to help Integration lead investigations on certain players (I forgot the duties for this position, but Ik it was talked about in the Conclave discussion thread. Also, still not sure if we’re agreeing to make this electable or not.)
University of the East Pacific
Chancellor Duties (To be Legislated/Debated Further
Chancellor: Shall try to add more publications to the Bachtendekuppen Library, and continue with the development of the University of the East Pacific to help provide for the education of TEP and NS as a whole on various subjects.
As well as that, Chancellor should as well create an archive of regional newspapers on forums. [bgcolor=#FFFFFF]I can see that.[/bgcolor]
Appointed Positions
Upon each new Delegate being elected, they can remove or replace the people in these positions. However, replacements MUST be discussed and passed by a majority vote in the Magisterium.
Minister of Foreign Affairs: Baseline duties (to be legislated/debated further), to help maintain, establish, and develop foreign relations with other regions, as well as increasing TEP’s reputation amongst its allies. The ultimate authority is to Delegate.
Minister of the World Assembly: Baseline duties (to be legislated/debated further), shall help education TEP on the World Assembly resolutions, as well as providing advice to the Delegate for the way TEP shall vote on WA affairs. The ultimate authority is to Delegate.
Minister of Regional Affairs: Baseline duties (to be legislated/debated further), Minister tasked with helping other Ministers, guiding them in their tasks and providing whatever help they need or direct them to people who can provide help. Basically, a team leader.
Eastern Pacific Sovereign Army Overseeing Officer: Baseline duties (to be legislated/debated further), shall help maintain and develop the regional military of TEP, and carry out operations, with limitations based on law and the Delegate’s orders. Second-in-command to the Delegate.
My strong suggestion is that, each of those positions should be nominated by WAD and voted by Magisterium. Again, I can see that. owo
Extra Processes
Things that need discussion:
Can the Delegate appoint non-Ministers into their cabinet? Should we legislate a process for that, or leave it up to the Delegate?
How are we going to legislate the duties of the Ministries? Are we even going to do that?
I hope so. We should write up list of responsibilities. If a Minister doesnt fulfil them, we may use it as a reaon to raise a vote of no confidence debate.
This sketch is based upon the summary of ideas Libertanny presented, as well as the changes proposed by Bachtendekuppen and our current election system for Delegates. So if something should be added, changed, or for the sake of future discussions, clarified, please say.
— End quote
As for now that’s all. I will write more during the weekend. I have only checked your proposal. I am still missing something there tho. But I am quite busy now. So please, wait for more.
Given that this is a big thing we need to do before moving forward, and the fact that most Magisters haven’t posted here yet, means this probably won’t be going anywhere, any time soon.
Yellow - my annotations
Green - no changes
Red - against
— End quote
— Begin quote from ____
A list of things I am concerned/disagreed with:
That’s interesting. Anyways, since the people who have looked at the draft thus far have said similar ideas on this, I’ll remove that section.
It is, and I know that the resolution passed by the Magisterium details which type of instant runoff to use. But some people don’t find it easy to understand (including me).
Again, good point. I’ll fix the draft since Libertanny also mentioned this.
I mean, it should. I guess I just wanted to detail exactly what would happen, but I can see why that’s redundant.
That makes sense. I’ll change it.
That does raise a good point. I’ll wait to see other’s thoughts on this before I do anything.
Whoops, that’s what I meant. Wasn’t clear on that, sorry!
No, that makes sense. I just assumed that the Lotus Local was you working on it as a project specifically for the government, not only supported by the government. I understand what you mean, I don’t want my RMB newspaper to get siezed as well. I’ll clarify that, sorry for the improper use of your newspaper as an example.
Yee, that makes sense. I’ll change it then.
In relation to your questions:
I don’t think the Delegate should be allowed to appoint non-Ministers to their Cabinet. If we want to have elected roles so that there is more directly democratic control over certain areas of the region and to have more of a voice for citizens in the Cabinet, then letting the Delegate drown them out would deter from this.
I think a separate Act would be needed for the ministerial responsibilities. Putting them in the Concordat would make them too inflexible to the needs of the day, whereas integrating them into an existing Act would diminish their standalone importance. It’d probably be substantial enough to warrant its own one in any case.
— End quote
^.^
Thanks! I’ll be triple posting soon (so sorrya bout that), so there we gooo
I’m in two regions where we do this, Oatland and XKI, and I don’t recommend it. Both frequently have trouble having competitive elections for ministers, and it introduces issues with ministers not sitting out their term. I get why you might want to elect ministers, it’s more democratic and is a good way of getting competing ideas in, but I haven’t seen it work out.
— Begin quote from ____
I’m in two regions where we do this, Oatland and XKI, and I don’t recommend it. Both frequently have trouble having competitive elections for ministers, and it introduces issues with ministers not sitting out their term. I get why you might want to elect ministers, it’s more democratic and is a good way of getting competing ideas in, but I haven’t seen it work out.
— End quote
This is exactly the reason why I heavily disagree with “electing of ministers”. On the surface, it appears as “giving power to the people”, in reality this is about destroying the region’s executive.
If we elect ministers, the ministers answer to the citizens instead of the delegate. We’ll have too many egos on board with different goals. Thus, producing an unproductive and ineffective executive.
Let’s take some example from real life governments. This has never worked and I don’t think it’ll work here. For example, USA, the founding father of Democracy only elects a President but not the Secretary of State and also the Secretary of Defence. Because it won’t work out. The Secretary of State and Secretary of Defence are both appointed by the President. And so does every other democratic country or parliamentary democracy. The Prime Minister appoints their ministers.
The people already have a voice. In the form of electing their Delegate. Voting for their delegate is also a vote of confidence that the delegate will be able to do their job and appoint credible and talented ministers to do the job.
As I have spoken in the magisterium channel on discord. Personally, I’m not in favor of this. We still need an executive “leader” or “figurehead”. Splitting the excecutive bodies will essentially create a many headed snake. Or IRL reference to USA having no presidents but run by The Secretary of Defence and Secretary of state separately. Multiple figureheads have never worked ever in history and I don’t see it working here too. It will lead to “civil wars”
So if we wanna seek to destroy the region. This is the way forward. If we want to see the region thrive, then this idea is going backwards.
just make them elected and grant people’s ideas if they’re reasonable i guess
I’ve read through the thread, just trying to find my opinion and thoughts.
I’m not convinced on the idea of taking power away from the Delegate. I haven’t been sold that it would make a the executive stronger. We need to make sure the Delegate has all the tools, resources and people at their disposal — immediately.
I don’t see where the people are not represented enough by electing a Delegate, democratically, are not truly represented. That’s almost a NSGP propaganda line against our region.
So for the vast majority of the executive — this isn’t a good idea.
The University on the other hand equals a great idea. It needs to be independent and on its own. The executive, no offense to anyone, just can’t run it correctly and it never has been. This wouldn’t hurt to try with Education, it’s nonessential.
We could simply create the Ministry of Resident Affairs that is elected from Citizens and — if we get resident protections — then Verified Residents could also run and vote. Then you would have a person that has been elected from not just citizens but residents (and could be a resident themselves) to directly represent counter to the Delegate as the voice of residents. Then they would also be able to manage the three types of residents I suggested with resident protections.
That’s my general quick thoughts. As it stands now, I can’t say I am for a group of elected ministers, that takes away what I think TEP needs. A solid and flexible executive that can change with the needs of the Delegate and region.
— Begin quote from ____
I’m in two regions where we do this, Oatland and XKI, and I don’t recommend it. Both frequently have trouble having competitive elections for ministers, and it introduces issues with ministers not sitting out their term. I get why you might want to elect ministers, it’s more democratic and is a good way of getting competing ideas in, but I haven’t seen it work out.
— End quote
I don’t think it not working in two smaller regions is necessarily an argument against it. This also seems like a fairly subjective judgement, as I think if the process was unpopular that the residents there would have already replaced it.
— Begin quote from ____
This is exactly the reason why I heavily disagree with “electing of ministers”. On the surface, it appears as “giving power to the people”, in reality this is about destroying the region’s executive.
If we elect ministers, the ministers answer to the citizens instead of the delegate. We’ll have too many egos on board with different goals. Thus, producing an unproductive and ineffective executive.
Let’s take some example from real life governments. This has never worked and I don’t think it’ll work here. For example, USA, the founding father of Democracy only elects a President but not the Secretary of State and also the Secretary of Defence. Because it won’t work out. The Secretary of State and Secretary of Defence are both appointed by the President. And so does every other democratic country or parliamentary democracy. The Prime Minister appoints their ministers.
The people already have a voice. In the form of electing their Delegate. Voting for their delegate is also a vote of confidence that the delegate will be able to do their job and appoint credible and talented ministers to do the job.
As I have spoken in the magisterium channel on discord. Personally, I’m not in favor of this. We still need an executive “leader” or “figurehead”. Splitting the excecutive bodies will essentially create a many headed snake. Or IRL reference to USA having no presidents but run by The Secretary of Defence and Secretary of state separately. Multiple figureheads have never worked ever in history and I don’t see it working here too. It will lead to “civil wars”
So if we wanna seek to destroy the region. This is the way forward. If we want to see the region thrive, then this idea is going backwards.
— End quote
Firstly, I think its really unproductive to talk about electing ministers in such dire terms. I don’t know what the future is, but I doubt changing one element of the way a handful of ministers are chosen will entirely “destroy the region”. Let’s be reasonable and fair in considering all options.
I think Ministers answering directly to the citizens is a good thing, and them being elected won’t necessarily introduce any more “egos” than there already are. It isn’t as if the Delegate appointing a Minister magically alleviates them of any self-interest, nor makes them any more inherently productive. Also, I don’t think it’s fair to assume that just because the Delegate appoints a Minister that that person will never disagree with them or perhaps be difficult in certain situations, and I believe the same would apply to elected Ministers. Disagreement isn’t necessarily bad, nor is it necessarily unproductive.
Comparing NS to real-life governments is not fair, in my opinion. Does the Fedele administration currently serve millions of people? How much money are we spending exactly on conducting elections? We also don’t elect our legislature, which every RL democratic country does, so should we start doing that too? i.e. not a fair comparison.
I don’t see what is inherently wrong about changing exactly what we vote the Delegate in for. If, as you claim, people are currently motivated to elect a Delegate who they trust can both do their job in leading the region AND also appoint effective Ministers to all departments, then what is wrong with just changing that second part to just crucial departments? The way I see it, the Delegate should be elected on their own merits and be able to appoint Ministers that are absolutely essential to achieving their aims, but it isn’t as if all their appointed Ministers are carbon copies of themselves. Citizens deserve to have a more direct say rather than just ‘trusting the trust of someone else’.
The proposal isn’t at all to remove the Delegate as the leader of the executive branch, as far as I am aware. In fact, the proposal aims to split one Ministry (Information and Culture) and abolish two (Design and Education), thus reducing the total ‘heads of the snake’ by one.