Execord - Keep Unified or Split Apart

Mangegneithe · August 1, 2022, 8:58pm

Once upon a time, we decided that it was a good idea to merge the University, RA, and FA discord servers into one. It would allow for centralized Executive and keep down the number of servers people had to join.

In fact, there were and still are quite a lot of TEP servers. EPSA remains separate for operational security purposes, our Roleplay is separate, and the main server, where other branches of government meet and general things happen, is completely separate from Execord. Having a lot of servers feels like something we can’t avoid, but should we try our best to limit it?

The issue on the table is whether or not we should undo the Executive unification and split RA, FA, and the University into separate servers again. Alternatively, we can just split the FA server and leave RA and UTEP in the same spot. We could also bring certain things back into the main server, such as RA and/or UTEP. It’s not a binary, it’s an open forum for creative ideas.

I’d like anyone and everyone to comment on this issue. If you don’t know anything about it or don’t care what happens either way, feel free to say so. If you have an opinion, express it. Feel free to list pros and cons, or explain why you feel a certain way. Ministers, executive staffers, foreign diplomats, and joe schmoes all have a right to reply about this.

Nociav · August 1, 2022, 8:59pm

I support the separation of the servers. UTEP and FA were both better separated.

Anya1989 · August 1, 2022, 9:06pm

I’m for keeping everything the way it is. Too many servers are annoying to navigate

Sammy23 · August 1, 2022, 9:14pm

In order to bring UTEP into the dynamics it once had, it could be good to bring it to the main server. As for FA and RA, maybe they can stay together

Libertanny · August 1, 2022, 9:15pm

The unification happened back when I was Delegate. If I recall correctly, the change was made because of an ongoing debate within an entity that back then was TEP Mods.

As time passed, I feel like this was a bad decision. We’ve had a decrease in activity since then (f.e. compare my first term with the second term), the infrastructure has become too complex, and keeping it all in one place seems to be confusing for people.

As MoFA that served both when FA Server was its entity and a MoFA that is now serving when the FA is merged via Uniexec, I do see more downhills in the current form than I’ve seen in the previous (split) form. Sammy, who served as Chancellor of UTEP both when UTEP was its entity and when it was merged via Uniexec, said a similar thing - that UTEP went downhill since it was merged with the rest of the Executive into one server.

In terms of pros:

Separate servers will have a simpler infrastructure;
Workers of a specific place (say RA or FA or UTEP) will know that if there’s a ping, it’s a ping specifically for them (that’s similar to why we moved Executive out of Main, as per Marrabuk’s suggestions - because people would stop paying attention to pings and ongoing convos, but also didn’t have a separated workplace from a place for entertainment);
Servers will be less confusing - as of now, we face the issue of diplomats and allied governments not knowing to join the Executive server; it wasn’t as big of an issue when the server was open “TEP Foreign Affairs.”;
Activity, I do feel like separate servers do bring more activity. I don’t think I can explain why, but even under Fedele, when our government was the most dead in recent history, FA Server was more active than current FA category is;
From the perspective of Technical Staffers - or pretty much anyone with access to most / all of the server - it’s a pain to understand what is going on and where and why, separate servers to at least keep all things in the server related to one specific topic (FA, UTEP, Exe, EPSA);
We had more interactions with foreign governments and diplomats back when we had a server with a channel for each region. It felt more cosy, it felt more personal (than one channel for all). For reason why we don’t have it anymore, look below.
As a bonus #1: I think we also were less worried about too many channels when servers were split. If we wanted to make channels, for say, diplomat of a month, or a meme channel, or any other activity - we just did, without worrying that the server is too big already;
As a bonus #2: I do realize that two years from now, we will merge FA with either Exe or RA, or Main. That’s what happens. But think of it as marketing a new product - people are always hyped about a new product, even if it’s just a “little improved” version of the previous product (say iPhones). So, just because the server will be something “new,” it will bring more activity naturally because people like testing new things. And we need that activity to make new FA connections (be that with either new people or with people that don’t talk there) and keep FA running.

Dremaur · August 1, 2022, 9:26pm

I believe the best course is to keep it combined. there is more room for coordination in one server vs many.

Mangegneithe · August 1, 2022, 9:42pm

For a not so absolute solution, I bring this to the table (I’ll remain neutral in the debate for obvious reasons, but may make suggestions for others to consider that I’m not too invested in):

We can move a channel for public FA interactions (basically news) into the main server, but keep the bureaucracy in Execord. That way, Execord is much more manageable, and it’s easier for foreign diplomats to find their way.

Nociav · August 1, 2022, 9:57pm

— Begin quote from ____

For a not so absolute solution, I bring this to the table (I’ll remain neutral in the debate for obvious reasons, but may make suggestions for others to consider that I’m not too invested in):

We can move a channel for public FA interactions (basically news) into the main server, but keep the bureaucracy in Execord. That way, Execord is much more manageable, and it’s easier for foreign diplomats to find their way.

— End quote

I disagree with moving FA into the main server. Firstly, because I want seperate channels for all regions which will be an even bigger pain in the main server. Secondly, I feel like the activity of the main server will determine FA activity rather than them being separate. Third, it will lack the “hype” Serge describes. Fourth, the specifics of getting FA onto main are the biggest problem Devil lies in the details. It will be incredibly difficult to plan it out.

Libertanny · August 1, 2022, 9:57pm

— Begin quote from ____

For a not so absolute solution, I bring this to the table (I’ll remain neutral in the debate for obvious reasons, but may make suggestions for others to consider that I’m not too invested in):

We can move a channel for public FA interactions (basically news) into the main server, but keep the bureaucracy in Execord. That way, Execord is much more manageable, and it’s easier for foreign diplomats to find their way.

— End quote

That makes even less sense and will decrease our interactions with foreign governments even further. So far big decisions we’ve been making (merging FA, UTEP and Exe or removing halls and individual channels for regions) has only achieved decrease of our interactions and therefore relations with other regions.

“FA interactions (basically news)” and this… FA is m u c h m o r e than just sending newsletters.

Zukchiva · August 1, 2022, 10:39pm

Libertanny’s arguments regarding activity and pinging are compelling arguments to make for a server split. There’s something about having specified servers that often begets more communal activity.

However, I do agree with Dremaur & Anya - having one server has made coordination much easier. Though we rarely have such need of it, but it is a need nonetheless. It’s also much simpler for everything to be in one server for me, personally.

I also think Sammy’s proposal makes sense. UTEP is discussion based, so it makes sense to drag it to the main server - although in this case I feel it would only work if it was opened up to all people (or maybe an opt-in mask for anyone wanting to pop in).

In my view, splitting is a viable option. However, I do think this view should be done carefully - one step being basing all executive servers off of a default template of some sort, and forcing the very basic channel organization at first glance (#announcements, #verification, #rules, etc.) to be formatting similarily. Just because the servers are split does not mean we cannot keep them unified at some level. All Executive staff should also be made to join the Executive server, IMO, so that for things like staffer roll-calls, we can easily coordinate such things.

I also believe that while general FA interaction should be kept in either a unified Exec server or a FA server, we should absolutely have a #foreign-news channel of some sort in the main server for people to post their news there. It makes little sense to me that we keep mandating diplomats send news updates only to FA staff on discord, when said updates are meant for all to read. FA server can be the place for one-on-one regional discussion and diplomat-related announcements, so it’d still be of utility to foreign diplomats.

Nociav · August 1, 2022, 10:48pm

For Discords, I created the following in chart form but decided to simply post it here normally instead. We have four Discords:

Main Discord
-General
-Magisterium
-Conclave
-EPPS
-Viziers
-General Government talk (#government-plaza)
-TEAPOT
-WA
-Admin
-REWARD

Uniexec Discord
-RA
–RA Leadership
-FA
–FA Leadership
-UTEP
–UTEP Leadership
-WA
–WA Leadership
-Cabinet
-REWARD

EPSA Discord
-Solely EPSA

RP Discord
-Forum RP (Predominantly)
-RMB RP (Officially, but scarcely)

I have expanded them with notes. EPSA and RP servers are concise in their intentions. It’s main and Uniexec where the Discord hassle exists. We can’t return exactly to the way things were before the Uniexec since that situation led to Uniexec to begin with! So, we should also look at sorting out the main Discord.

Libertanny · August 1, 2022, 10:50pm

As an additional argument, I’d like to bring what I brought in our GC.

So, some numbers:

**Last 100 days since last active period unless channel exsited for shorter period **

— Begin quote from ____

Uniexec:
fa-general: 1.33 message per day
diplomats chat: 14.27 message per day
general (FA+all): 13.47 message per day
fedele did nothing wrong (FA+all): 4.73 message per day
kangaroo court: 6.01 messages per day

FA Server, when separate:
the npo tsp tep plot (channel existed for 7 days): 147.57 message per day
trial against humansanity (channel existed for 25 days): 17.32 message per day
type tilde libertanny: 0.8 message per day
just for lols (channel existed for 64 days): 2.53 message per day
reception hall: 7.43 message per day
fedele did nothing wrong: 24.97 message per day
diplomatic corps: 5.85 message per day
junior diplomats: 13.68 message per day

— End quote

So some maths:

— Begin quote from ____

Comparision of general chatter messages:
19.53 msg a day (currently, fa-general, general, fedele did nothing wrong) vs 32.4 msg a day (previously, fedele did nothing wrong, reception hall)
.
Meme channels, with plot channel excluded:
6.01 msg a day (currently, kangaroo court) vs 20.65 msg a day (previously, type tilde libertanny, trial against humansanity, just for lols)
.
Meme channels, with plot channel included:
6.01msg a day (currently, kangaroo court) vs 168.22 msg a day (previously, type tilde libertanny, trial against humansanity, just for lols, the npo tsp tep plot)
.
Diplomatic channels:
14.27 msg a day (currently, diplomatic corps) vs 19.53(previously, diplomatic corps, junior diplomats)
.
Total comparison (all main channels vs all main channels), with plot channel excluded:
39.81 msg a day vs 72.58 msg a day
.
Total foreign comparison (all main channels where foreign diplomats and govts were active), with plot channel excluded:
25.54 msg a day vs 53.05 msg a day

— End quote

Nociav · August 1, 2022, 11:20pm

To summarise, my current thoughts are:

The current system doesn’t work. FA and UTEP both died.
The old system worked better. FA and UTEP were both active.
However, the old system directly led to the current system, so returning to it isn’t an option. We have to adjust the old system so we don’t have everything progress down to another Uniexec.

Zukchiva · August 1, 2022, 11:26pm

— Begin quote from ____

To summarise, my current thoughts are:

The current system doesn’t work. FA and UTEP both died.
The old system worked better. FA and UTEP were both active.
However, the old system directly led to the current system, so returning to it isn’t an option. We have to adjust the old system so we don’t have everything progress down to another Uniexec.

— End quote

Pretty sure the current Executive arose because everyone thought it would be better to have a unified server for everything. Any split server - new or old system - would have to face that sentiment eventually.

Sent from my LM-Q730 using Tapatalk

Nociav · August 1, 2022, 11:34pm

— Begin quote from ____

To summarise, my current thoughts are:

The current system doesn’t work. FA and UTEP both died.
The old system worked better. FA and UTEP were both active.
However, the old system directly led to the current system, so returning to it isn’t an option. We have to adjust the old system so we don’t have everything progress down to another Uniexec.

— End quote

Pretty sure the current Executive arose because everyone thought it would be better to have a unified server for everything. Any split server - new or old system - would have to face that sentiment eventually.

Sent from my LM-Q730 using Tapatalk

— End quote

Now, however, we have concrete proof that such a system doesn’t work. We went down that path. It was a mistake but we didn’t know any better. We know better now.

Zukchiva · August 1, 2022, 11:38pm

— Begin quote from ____

To summarise, my current thoughts are:

The current system doesn’t work. FA and UTEP both died.
The old system worked better. FA and UTEP were both active.
However, the old system directly led to the current system, so returning to it isn’t an option. We have to adjust the old system so we don’t have everything progress down to another Uniexec.

— End quote

Pretty sure the current Executive arose because everyone thought it would be better to have a unified server for everything. Any split server - new or old system - would have to face that sentiment eventually.

Sent from my LM-Q730 using Tapatalk

Now, however, we have concrete proof that such a system doesn’t work. We went down that path. It was a mistake but we didn’t know any better. We know better now.

— End quote

Doesn’t change what you said - regardless of how we change up our “old system”, there will likely be a move to re-consolidate everything in a year or three. No matter what we do, if we split the servers, that sentiment will probably come back one day.

Also, as a note - the current Executive server works. It may not work as optimally in some metrics like activity, but it does function. Its a bit incorrect to say it doesn’t work at all.

Sent from my LM-Q730 using Tapatalk

Libertanny · August 1, 2022, 11:51pm

Additional maths:

OLD (5 random examples)
Europeia: 1.05 msg a day
NPO: 0.91 msg a day
Thaecia: 2.93 msg a day
FNR: 0.95 msg a day XKI: 1.19 msg a day
So the average is: 1.40 msg a day
We had 33 channels for other regions, which makes a grand total of: 33*1.4=46.2 msg a day just in diplomatic channels

NEW:
fa-general: 1.33 msg a day
fa-news: 0.88 msg a day

Comparison of “just diplomatic channels”:
2.21 (currently) vs 46.2 (previously)

SirShadow · August 2, 2022, 12:09am

Shadow’s vision:

Main + UTEP
Exec HQ + RA
Roleplay
EPSUH
FA

Libertanny · August 2, 2022, 12:13am

— Begin quote from ____

Shadow’s vision:

Main + UTEP
Exec HQ + RA
Roleplay
EPSUH
FA

— End quote

After few hours of arguing in GC, I second that.

Aurora_Yukihime · August 2, 2022, 5:33am

Systems of separation benefit the operators. It was logical that Delegate Libertanny would combine RA, FA, WAA, and UTEP together - he is the king of pings, and to have the whole Executive in one place to only ping those of Executive importance was invaluable to him. Likewise for the WA-engaged it made sense that there was a special channel for WA Discussion with a closed ministry of trusted officials who could guide TEP’s way with informed decisions.

Not far in the past is the Delegacies of Zukchiva and myself - the former opened RA to all staffers, regardless of whether they were in RA or not, be they UTEP staff or FA staff, and myself who moved all things WA onto the main server. To our benefit, this achieved opening these channels and topics to new activity that, unlike our predecessor, was not in a condition we could best provide. I will try my damnest not to ping you if I know it is late for you, and keep them to a minimum - yet Serge’s highly successful style throws a good 5 around for good measure!

So onto the servers. I instead wish to frame this question this way - what does an organization look like that best operationalizes the Executive under Delegate Aivintis?

Mind of course that to create a new server requires everybody to move and everybody to know to quit using the former one, and to combine with the main server - while I perceive as crazy lucrative in terms of public activity for say a FA general and foreign ambassador reports chat as the highly successful Union of Democratic States, Free Nations Region, and Alstroemerian Commonwealths have, or for public input in RA planning where citizens can not only be aware of RA plans in progress, but also directly contribute just as I had opened the WA Discussion Ministry presently.

Mind of course also I am not saying to move all 50+ Executive roles and 50+ channels onto the main server. Two things stop you: common-sense security, sovereign operations, and the fact that the main server is big, already has a bunch of fun roles, and part of the reason we split in the first place is so the Executive has control over its own domain. If something can greatly benefit from public input, put in the main server where citizens can see it. Otherwise keep it separate and secure.

THUS, if there were a demand now for change and the decision up for me, I would commit the following:

Main (Public access RA, FA reports from foreign ambassadors - bonus news for our mostly isolationist citizens!, WA Discussion, UTEP, all present material)
Executive Leadership (Sensitive RA; internal FA, escalation, and FA direct link with the Executive)
Roleplay (Included only because Shadow’s list did. Leave. Them. Be. Make no plans to move this server at all.)
EPSA (Corrected your typo. Leave as is.)

Why? Because my style found that getting citizens directly involved where they can see it,

brings people to our main server and gets them engaged with the community at large
brings people who were originally there just to meme or chat or what have you down to the weird new channels and see what is all exactly we do
to get your friend in you don’t need to send them a bunch of paperwork, just ping 'em and help right away
want a citizen opinion? All of the Hussars are right there.

Is the Delerasi me? No. But that is how I would do it.