Standing Orders Discussion

The Magisterium
61

— Begin quote from ____

— Begin quote from ____

It certainly does matter if their priorities have changed.

— End quote

Exactly. It is natural for people who play this game to change regions, and subsequently their loyalties, over periods of time. I don’t see why we would give special privilege to previous members of the region, no matter their prior significance, just because they were here before. If they made this same commitment previously and now can’t handle making it again, then there’s something to be said about that. The Magisterium should be an institution that contains individuals who make TEP their top priority.

— End quote

Agreed on this point. Though, I wonder… playing devil’s advocate here, what if TEP is their top 3 priority? With how conglomerated things are and have been for so long, would we be missing on anyone who really can’t decide between two regions, perhaps three?

62

— Begin quote from ____

— Begin quote from ____

It certainly does matter if their priorities have changed.

— End quote

Exactly. It is natural for people who play this game to change regions, and subsequently their loyalties, over periods of time. I don’t see why we would give special privilege to previous members of the region, no matter their prior significance, just because they were here before. If they made this same commitment previously and now can’t handle making it again, then there’s something to be said about that. The Magisterium should be an institution that contains individuals who make TEP their top priority.

— End quote

Oh no. I’m not suggesting letting former members in with no commitment. That’s a nightmare. If they have current citizenship then that’s a commitment. I’m pretty old school in this regard. I’m not going to lie about that I served in the Magisterium when we had no WA requirement to your WA could be Delegate of another GCR as long as your continued your citizenship commitment here and was active. Some have done great at multiregioning and others… no so much but we have a process for that. I understand both sides of the argument very well.

[spoiler]The interesting thing is that it is a requirement of a Magister but not the equally important role or Arbiter.
[/spoiler]

63

— Begin quote from ____

Oh no. I’m not suggesting letting former members in with no commitment. That’s a nightmare. If they have current citizenship then that’s a commitment. I’m pretty old school in this regard. I’m not going to lie about that I served in the Magisterium when we had no WA requirement to your WA could be Delegate of another GCR as long as your continued your citizenship commitment here and was active. Some have done great at multiregioning and others… no so much but we have a process for that. I understand both sides of the argument very well.

[spoiler]The interesting thing is that it is a requirement of a Magister but not the equally important role or Arbiter.
[/spoiler]

— End quote

Citizenship and Citizenship alongside World Assembly membership within TEP are two very different levels of commitment. I think it is a pretty widely accepted notion that where you keep your WA in the long term is where you focus your attention and effort (ignoring obvious WA mobile situations). I personally believe that WA commitment should be a requirement for all roles on a similar level to Magisters, as you also brought up. Magisters should be fully committed to TEP and the WA requirement is an important facet of making that commitment so we can ensure that TEP is the first priority for the people in charge of shaping our region.

64

I wonder, is clicking a button to join the WA really a sign of commitment? Does that ensure that the Magister will actively debate or write or propose legislation? Maybe we should accept that commitment is not something to be measured by a single act, but to be proven by the Nation throughout their tenure. The WA-requirement has been a longstanding policy as a proof as “commitment”. I’m not convinced it has ever proved effective to ensure an active Magisterium. Aren’t we blowing this out of proportions? We as a Magisterium vote on who wants to join, and we can vote no for any reason we fashion. Given that, do we need much other restrictions? If one as a Magister feels that an applicant should not join for any reason at all, vote no. Moreover, we have laws against Nations that would join to subvert yo the region, or the SO to remove Magisters that are inactive, … .

65

Yes. The requirement of a WA nation has always been a signifier of a deeper commitment since time immemorial. This is a fairly simple concept. Without a requirement for a WA nation in The East Pacific, there are plenty of ideological flunkies who cruise around looking for the latest region to exploit who could easily join the legislature and impact decisions made here for their own purposes, for those of their master. A WA requirement is another proof of dedication to this region and what it stands for.

66

It has not been a requirement in TEP for that long. I can’t remember much “ideological flunkies” flocking in here before. And the more Citizens in the Magisterium, the less impact one vote has. I think having WA could say something about commitment, but is far from an absolute indication, nor a holy principle.

67

I agree with Bach that the WA requirement is not a holy 100% commitment.

Most positions, in most democratic regions, do not require a WA. So while a person may have loyalty to another region, maybe they can go “hey, one endorsement lost for my delegate won’t destroy my region, I might as well give my WA to TEP to be a Magister!” Or something like that.

Another example would be me. I can easily move my WA to another region, and retain all my positions I hold. No effect on me. In the same way, someone could move their WA here easily, without having an effect in their status in other regions.

Also, if someone really wanted to subterfuge the Magisterium, they would definetly move their WA here.

I’m not saying that having a WA requirement is bad, because most people do end up leaving their WA in the region they’re most involved with, generally. So it could show a willingness to work in TEP as a Magister. On the other hand, it doesnt always promise complete loyalty to TEP, or even if TEP is a person’s primary region.

I guess what I’m saying is in general, that the WA requirement ensures that the Magisterium has a more TEP-primary kinda focus, but it doesnt change the fact that people may shove their WA here while being primarily involved in another region.

Heck, maybe we’re shooting ourselves in the foot with it. There are people who most likely would be willing, loyal Magisters but do not wish to keep their WA here as they have a primary region. An example I can think of is Catalyse, a former TRR Delegate who had to leave the Magisterium because she, literally, became Delegate of another region.

Then again, that’s the only kind of people the WA requirement really prevents from joining the Magisterium. People who have primary interest in another region but care where their WA is and keep it somewhere else.

People who want to subterfuge the Magisterium, or don’t particularly care about their WA, are still able to get past this requirement.

Sent from my SM-J327P using Tapatalk

68

My biggest question and mentioned before in a spoiler… If the Magisterium has a WA requirement for citizens to join then shouldn’t the Magisterium also issue a resolution for the Executive and Conclave to hold citizens to the the same standard for their branches? At that point should WA membership be amended to the Concordant for citizenship?

EDIT:

Perhaps the above is what can make a citizen and a naturalized citizen different? Non-voting citizen and voting citizen. Food for thought on another upcoming discussion.

69

That was largely the reason why Halo was replaced in the Conclave. His priority was obviously elsewhere, as he readily admitted. A WA requirement would have no effect on current members of the conclave and seems to be a sensible expectation.

Sent from my BlackBerry Pearl using Tapatalk

70

To move things along, I’d like to put these changes up for a vote if there are no more edits.
We can address the rest of the SO and the Conclave afterwards.

— Begin quote from ____

SECTION I. ACCEPTANCE OF MAGISTERS

1.1- Citizens wishing to become Magisters must do all of the following:
    1.1.1- Be a Citizen of TEP;
    1.1.2- Be a WA Member with their TEP resident nation;
    1.1.3- Supply the name of their resident WA nation, except if their WA nation is involved in EPSA, in which case it may remain classified;
    1.1.4- Endorse the Delegate and all Viziers;
    1.1.5- Complete a Public Official Disclosure Form;
    1.1.6- Join and contribute to an Executive ministry, service or agency, including EPSA, evidenced by recognition of contribution by an Executive Minister or the Delegate;
    1.1.7- Recite the Magister’s Pledge in the appropriate designated location in the Magisterium sub-forum;

1.2- It is recommended, but not required, that Citizens wishing to become Magisters do the following:
    1.2.1- Complete a course, practicum, tenure or academic publication in The East Pacific University;
    1.2.2- Post on the RMB at least three times;
    1.2.3- Contribute to ‘TEP Evolved’ subforum at least three times;

1.3-The Magisterium shall, by majority vote, decide whether a new Magister will be accepted.

1.4- Citizens who are denied acceptance into the Magisterium may appeal the decision to the Conclave;
    1.4.1- The appellant must present a petition on Magister Acceptance to the Conclave, listing their qualifications for the Magisterium and their reasons why they feel the original Magisterium vote should be declared invalid. The petition must be endorsed by at least 5 citizens;
    1.4.2- The contents of the petition will be reviewed by the Conclave and if valid, the Conclave will instruct the Provost to present the contents of the petition to the Magisterium and schedule a new election;
    1.4.3- If elected by a majority vote of the Magisterium, the applicant will be accepted into the Magisterium.
    1.4.4- There is no appeal of a second Magister election, however, the candidate can reapply in 30 days from the end of the second election.

— End quote

71

Hold up. All of the following?

Edit: Nevermind. I misread.

Sent from my BlackBerry Pearl using Tapatalk

72

I do have something to comment on. In regards to the following section:

— Begin quote from ____

1.1.6- Join and contribute to an Executive ministry, service or agency, including EPSA, evidenced by recognition of contribution by an Executive Minister or the Delegate;

— End quote

Bach knows my struggle with getting roleplayers to represent themselves in the government and the easiest one I can try to shuttle people to is the Magisterium – so should this really be a requirement? Can’t this be a recommendation?

73

Standing Orders Discussion - Page 4 - The East Pacific - Tapatalk. A pick-four approach is a good compromise, IMO.

— Begin quote from ____

SECTION I. ACCEPTANCE OF MAGISTERS

1.1- Citizens wishing to become Magisters must do all of the following:
1.1.1- Be a Citizen of TEP;
1.1.2- Be a WA Member with their TEP resident nation and supply the name of their resident WA nation, except if their WA nation is involved in EPSA, in which case it may remain classified;
1.1.3- Complete a Public Official Disclosure Form;
1.1.4- Recite the Magister’s Pledge in the appropriate designated location in the Magisterium sub-forum.

1.2- It is recommended, but not required, that Citizens wishing to become Magisters do the following:
1.2.1- Complete a course, practicum, tenure or academic publication in The East Pacific University;
1.2.2- Post on the RMB at least three times;
1.2.3- Contribute to ‘TEP Evolved’ subforum at least three times;
1.2.4- Be a native of 14 days or more in the region;
1.2.5- Endorse the delegate and all viziers.

1.3-The Magisterium shall, by majority vote, decide whether a new Magister will be accepted.

1.4- Citizens who are denied acceptance into the Magisterium may appeal the decision to the Conclave;
1.4.1- The appellant must present a petition on Magister Acceptance to the Conclave, listing their qualifications for the Magisterium and their reasons why they feel the original Magisterium vote should be declared invalid. The petition must be endorsed by at least 5 citizens;
1.4.2- The contents of the petition will be reviewed by the Conclave and if valid, the Conclave will instruct the Provost to present the contents of the petition to the Magisterium and schedule a new election;
1.4.3- If elected by a majority vote of the Magisterium, the applicant will be accepted into the Magisterium.
1.4.4- There is no appeal of a second Magister election, however, the candidate can reapply in 30 days from the end of the first or the second election.

— End quote

But I have an idea, as I think this WA / Non-WA thing could make this thing drag on. We’ll call the above draft Draft 1. I have another draft below, Draft 2. Let me know your thoughts on either one.

— Begin quote from ____

SECTION I. ACCEPTANCE OF MAGISTERS

1.1- Citizens wishing to become Magisters must do all of the following:
1.1.1- Be a Citizen of TEP;
1.1.2- Supply the name of their WA nation, except if their WA nation is involved in EPSA, in which case it may remain classified;
1.1.3- Complete a Public Official Disclosure Form;
1.1.4- Recite the Magister’s Pledge in the appropriate designated location in the Magisterium sub-forum.

1.2- It is recommended, but not required, that Citizens wishing to become Magisters do the following:
1.2.1- Complete a course, practicum, tenure or academic publication in The East Pacific University;
1.2.2- Post on the RMB at least three times;
1.2.3- Contribute to ‘TEP Evolved’ subforum at least three times;
1.2.4- Be a native of 14 days or more in the region;
1.2.5- Endorse the delegate and all viziers.

1.3-For a citizen with a resident WA Nation, The Magisterium shall, by majority vote, decide whether a new Magister will be accepted. For a citizen with a non-resident WA Nation, The Magisterium shall, by 2/3 majority vote, decide whether a new Magister will be accepted.

1.4- Citizens who are denied acceptance into the Magisterium may appeal the decision to the Conclave;
1.4.1- The appellant must present a petition on Magister Acceptance to the Conclave, listing their qualifications for the Magisterium and their reasons why they feel the original Magisterium vote should be declared invalid. The petition must be endorsed by at least 5 citizens;
1.4.2- The contents of the petition will be reviewed by the Conclave and if valid, the Conclave will instruct the Provost to present the contents of the petition to the Magisterium and schedule a new election;
1.4.3- If elected by a majority vote of the Magisterium, the applicant will be accepted into the Magisterium.
1.4.4- There is no appeal of a second Magister election, however, the candidate can reapply in 30 days from the end of the first or the second election.

— End quote

Some argue that WA in TEP should count for something. Some argue it shouldn’t, or it shouldn’t have much of an affect here. I agree that WA should count for something. Why not allow non-native WA’s in the Magisterium, but make it harder for them to join, thereby not ruling them out, but incentivizing WA membership?

It would seem like a good compromise as far as I can tell.

74

I’m speaking as a citizen >:0

I agreed with Todd’s proposal.

While I’m not exactly for making endorsing the Delegate a recommendation, there could be an explanation for that as in, freedom of speech. Maybe by not endorsing the Delegate, they’re saying they disagree with him? So it would make sense for this to be questioned during Magister applications.

Same for WA.

Magisters should be able to keep up the screening process, being our last line of defense. And with so many experienced individuals at this time, I don’t see why we can’t place our trust in them. So I think it’s a good compromise.

As for the removal of the Executive clause, I agree with that as well. The whole point of the Magisterium is to get new Magisters to help improve and create legislation.

I have rarely seen someone denied based on the organizations they’ve been. And they way the SOM words it, you could just do a factbook and get recognized contribution.

Either way, it’s a step more for activity and seeing how the Executive works, rather than loyalty. But why should a Magister care about the Executive’s processes if they don’t work there? And it’s easy to see who is inactive, especially when the Magisterium has votes fired up like this.

The fact is that people who are eager to be Magisters may be turned down by having to go through an executive application, then waiting a few days before being given a task for which they can earn contribution. The SOM is ambiguos on this matter, so they’d not even know how much work they will have to do to be recognized.

Sent from my SM-J327P using Tapatalk

75

— Begin quote from ____

— Begin quote from ____

SECTION I. ACCEPTANCE OF MAGISTERS

1.1- Citizens wishing to become Magisters must do all of the following:
    1.1.1- Be a Citizen of TEP;
    1.1.2- Be a WA Member with their TEP resident nation;
    1.1.3- Supply the name of their resident WA nation, except if their WA nation is involved in EPSA, in which case it may remain classified;
    1.1.4- Endorse the Delegate and all Viziers;
    1.1.5- Complete a Public Official Disclosure Form;
    1.1.6- Join and contribute to an Executive ministry, service or agency, including EPSA, evidenced by recognition of contribution by an Executive Minister or the Delegate;
    1.1.7- Recite the Magister’s Pledge in the appropriate designated location in the Magisterium sub-forum;

1.2- It is recommended, but not required, that Citizens wishing to become Magisters do the following:
    1.2.1- Complete a course, practicum, tenure or academic publication in The East Pacific University;
    1.2.2- Post on the RMB at least three times;
    1.2.3- Contribute to ‘TEP Evolved’ subforum at least three times;

1.3-The Magisterium shall, by majority vote, decide whether a new Magister will be accepted.

1.4- Citizens who are denied acceptance into the Magisterium may appeal the decision to the Conclave;
    1.4.1- The appellant must present a petition on Magister Acceptance to the Conclave, listing their qualifications for the Magisterium and their reasons why they feel the original Magisterium vote should be declared invalid. The petition must be endorsed by at least 5 citizens;
    1.4.2- The contents of the petition will be reviewed by the Conclave and if valid, the Conclave will instruct the Provost to present the contents of the petition to the Magisterium and schedule a new election;
    1.4.3- If elected by a majority vote of the Magisterium, the applicant will be accepted into the Magisterium.
    1.4.4- There is no appeal of a second Magister election, however, the candidate can reapply in 30 days from the end of the second election.

— End quote

— End quote

This is the best draft that has been proposed so far. So we keep the WA requirements, prove their commitment to TEP by getting involved in a facet of our region, and then go through the other formalities.

In reply to some posts above:
I don’t agree with differentiating Magisters who are WA and Non-WA. I think we should either have the requirement or not have it. We should not have different standards and requirements for some Magisters than others. The law should apply to everyone equally and if they can’t handle committing their World Assembly membership to our region, they shouldn’t be a Magister.

I also don’t agree with the sentiment that getting people involved in the executive government is something that is a hard thing to do. There are tons of wheels turning right now in the region and lots of different things to do and take part in. I know this because I am actively pursuing some of them and have tried to bring in people that have mostly stuck to RP or the RMB into the fold to encourage them and get them involved. If it is hard to get people to participate in one of those facets of our region, it’s because the person encouraging them isn’t doing a good job at appealing to their interests and abilities or they just don’t want to do stuff. The latter being a good indicator that they probably shouldn’t be in the Magisterium.

This isn’t a case of “Why should a legislator care about the executive?”. We are all one region and are all supposed to be working to make it a better place as a whole, no matter your job title (or lack of one!). None of the requirements proposed will ever be able to 100% ensure that a new Magister will remain active, participate, contribute, and be a positive force, but I think the ones that remain in Dave’s recent draft are essential and are at least impactful in that way.

76

In my opinion, Todd’s Draft 2 offers the best balance between the various propositions and principles being discussed here, and is more of a compromise.

I don’t see Davelands compromise as a compromise at all.

77

I have included a clause (1.1.6.1) that addresses Em’s concerns about including people from the Role Play community. I think that is a good compromise.

Bach, my entire document has been about adding in or making changes based on all the GOOD ideas from all the people posting. But I will not compromise on the WA issue. That is about security. If you want to have access to change our laws and be in the Legislative branch, then you should have a WA in TEP and endorse the Delegate and Viziers like we strongly and consistently ask all WA nations to do. Based on the chatter we have all seen in places like NSGP, I am not open to allowing just anyone to create a puppet and try to infiltrate the Magisterium. Having a WA in TEP at least minimizes that risk. And yes, the Magisterium can ask questions, but we as a body cannot know all. Let’s face it, “forgetting” to put something in a PDF happens.

Heck, we removed Halo, probably one of the nicest and fairest people in NationStates, from the Conclave because his allegiances were to his home region as (WA) Delegate and it was an obvious conflict of interest.

And to address Zuk’s concerns. Remember, this is about ACCEPTING a new Magister. I feel that they should endorse the Delegate and Viziers to be considered for inclusion. If, after that, they decide in their good conscience to un-endorse them, then that is their right and something we as a body can address (or not) by removing them (or not).

That being said, here is the updated proposal.

— Begin quote from ____

SECTION I. ACCEPTANCE OF MAGISTERS

1.1- Citizens wishing to become Magisters must do all of the following:
    1.1.1- Be a Citizen of TEP;
    1.1.2- Be a WA Member with their TEP resident nation;
    1.1.3- Supply the name of their resident WA nation, except if their WA nation is involved in EPSA, in which case it may remain classified;
    1.1.4- Endorse the Delegate and all Viziers;
    1.1.5- Complete a Public Official Disclosure Form;
    1.1.6- Join and contribute to an Executive ministry, service or agency, including EPSA, evidenced by recognition of contribution by an Executive Minister or the Delegate;
        1.1.6.1- If an active Roleplayer, instead of 1.1.6, have a documented history of Role Play;
    1.1.7- Recite the Magister’s Pledge in the appropriate designated location in the Magisterium sub-forum;

1.2- It is recommended, but not required, that Citizens wishing to become Magisters do the following:
    1.2.1- Complete a course, practicum, tenure or academic publication in The East Pacific University;
    1.2.2- Post on the RMB at least three times;
    1.2.3- Contribute to ‘TEP Evolved’ subforum at least three times;

1.3-The Magisterium shall, by majority vote, decide whether a new Magister will be accepted.

1.4- Citizens who are denied acceptance into the Magisterium may appeal the decision to the Conclave;
    1.4.1- The appellant must present a petition on Magister Acceptance to the Conclave, listing their qualifications for the Magisterium and their reasons why they feel the original Magisterium vote should be declared invalid. The petition must be endorsed by at least 5 citizens;
    1.4.2- The contents of the petition will be reviewed by the Conclave and if valid, the Conclave will instruct the Provost to present the contents of the petition to the Magisterium and schedule a new election;
    1.4.3- If elected by a majority vote of the Magisterium, the applicant will be accepted into the Magisterium.
    1.4.4- There is no appeal of a second Magister election, however, the candidate can reapply in 30 days from the end of the second election.

— End quote

It is proposed for vote. I am awaiting a second.

78

— Begin quote from ____

In my opinion, Todd’s Draft 2 offers the best balance between the various propositions and principles being discussed here, and is more of a compromise.

I don’t see Davelands compromise as a compromise at all.

— End quote

You don’t see Davelands’ draft as a compromise because you don’t agree with him and others on the WA issue. The evolution from the initial proposal is pretty clear, whether that evolution has included your insight or not.

It also seems pretty clear where that insight of yours originates from. You’re certainly not someone that shies away from the rabble in NSGP and their persistent diatribe against TEP. You’ve been very consistent in echoing the criticisms and ideals from that crowd here in the Magisterium and elsewhere in TEP. I’ve seen you comment often about why a WA requirement is a bad thing, but you haven’t really backed up your reasoning why you think removing that requirement is a good thing. If you’re going to continue with this, how does removing the WA requirements help the security of our region? As was stated before me, the requirement may only marginally help prove a level of commitment and dedication to our region, but how does removing it help bolster those things instead of completely strip it away? I can ping you incessantly in the NSGP Discord if that helps me get some clarification since you respond to that well already.

The draft Davelands has is the best “complete package”, in my opinion. I second his motion to vote.

79

Either of the drafts aside, I still believe seven points is quite a lot to ask for when it comes to joining the Magisterium. I would say we allow the Magisters to vote accordingly and allow them to be the best metric for whether or not one seems committed to making TEP even better.

80

If I may:
My comments in bold, italics, red

1.1.1- Be a Citizen of TEP; - Obvious and a given. No effort required other than completing the citizenship app and being accepted.
    1.1.2- Be a WA Member with their TEP resident nation; - Obvious and a given. No effort required other than joining the WA.
    1.1.3- Supply the name of their resident WA nation, except if their WA nation is involved in EPSA, in which case it may remain classified; - One line in their PDF. No effort required.
    1.1.4- Endorse the Delegate and all Viziers; - Obvious and a given. No effort required other than clicking on a couple of nations’ Endorse button.
    1.1.5- Complete a Public Official Disclosure Form; - Obvious and a given. 15 minutes of effort.
    1.1.6- Join and contribute to an Executive ministry, service or agency, including EPSA, evidenced by recognition of contribution by an Executive Minister or the Delegate; - The only real work required, but no minimum time required. Could be one EPSA jump or a week in a Ministry.
        1.1.6.1- If an active Roleplayer, instead of 1.1.6, have a documented history of Role Play; - They are Role Playing in the region anyway.
    1.1.7- Recite the Magister’s Pledge in the appropriate designated location in the Magisterium sub-forum; - 5 minutes to copy and paste the Pledge and post it.

So the reality of the 7 steps breaks down to an hour of work PLUS either Role Playing which they are already doing or spending a minimum amount of time in a Ministry or EPSA.
Not exactly a hardship.