I would move 1.1.6 to article 1.2, for reasons described above.
I would also say that 1.2, by not being binding, really doesn’t have any place in the Standing Orders. This is not the Book of Recommendations.
I think that having prior service in the Government (1.1.6) is an important requirement to being a Magister.
Would the following change to 1.2 be better accepted?
— Begin quote from ____
1.2- In addition, Citizens wishing to become Magisters must do at least one of the following:
1.2.1- Complete a course, practicum, tenure or academic publication in The East Pacific University;
1.2.2- Post on the RMB at least three times;
1.2.3- Contribute to ‘TEP Evolved’ subforum at least three times;
— End quote
“We want more Magisters.”
“Current requirements are way too strict.”
Absolutely assaults new applicants unless they have been here at least 10 years.
No wonder I have to spend weeks encouraging and convincing people to apply to join the magisterium. Who would want to volunteer themselves to be attacked by this brood of vipers? And this after meeting “excessive” requirements? We say we want more members and a diversity of views and then we treat applicants like this? “Cowardice” and “hypocrisy” are not words easily avoided at the moment.
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Whatever your remarks might be on the rules and processes of the Magisterium Fedele, such language, describing Magisters as “brood”, “vipers”, and so on is wholly inappropriate and insulting.
This is a new low between Delegate and Magisterium.
But you didn’t disagree.
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— Begin quote from ____
But you didn’t disagree.
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— End quote
Who is this directed at and what does it mean to say?
— Begin quote from ____
…1.1.6- Have posted at least 10 times in the TEP forum or at least 30 times in the Regional Message Board.
— End quote
Well, here, that is a no from me. Although I do understand the general idea of this addition, I don’t think that it could help. As a Magister, you need to know how to use TEP Forum. Posting on RMB won’t really teach you anything.
— Begin quote from ____
……1.1.7- Have received an endorsement from at least one East Pacific resident in support of becoming a Magister.
— End quote
Although the idea is interesting, I would actually move it to Section 1, Point 2 and change it a little. I see no need for such a restriction, however, it would make an interesting addition to make joining to Magisterium easier. We could go about it as one of three restrictions you have to meet, and remake it to expect you to have endorsements of five citizens for your application.
— Begin quote from ____
…1.2.4- Contribute to ‘TEP Evolved’ subforum five times and have their contributions verified by a roleplay moderator;
— End quote
I am fully netural on this idea. I don’t think that it is too much of job to actually check whether a given citizen has posted there 5 times or not. Could help the Provost with job. But still, at the same time, I don’t see it necessary but I also don’t have anything against it.
— Begin quote from ____
…2.1- Any citizen or Magister may propose a bill, resolution, or amendment to the Concordat and the Magisterium shall debate that proposal immediately.
— End quote
I heartfully agree - our citizens should have a bigger say in governmental cases.
Answering Bach
— Begin quote from ____
Be a Citizen for 1 month : do we really need this? A month is long time in here. Do we really want interested new Citizens to stand aside for a month?
— End quote
I do indeed find it necessary. I would say even more - I do believe that this should be even a longer period. I don’t think, that a persona, who has recently became a Citizen (one month is a really short period) is capable of creating sensible laws and deciding about current laws. I think, that first, you need experience and knowledge in GP, before becoming a Magister.
— Begin quote from ____
Endorse the Delegate and all Viziers : why is this under section 1.2? Shouldn’t everyone in TEP, let alone in the TEP government, endorse the Delegate and Viziers in any case?
— End quote
I don’t think, that I consider it probelmatic. I actually consider it mandatory. I know that it should be obvious to endorse Delegate and Viziers. But now, if we would get rid of this requirement - how can we make sure that Magister will be loyal to TEP? This is one, I believe, of points, that are proving future Magisters’ loyalty to the region.
— Begin quote from ____
Posting 10 times : this is nonsensical. One could post 10 times in the Arcade, it has no bearing at all on the applicants qualities to serve as a Magister, or his/her commitment to be involved as a Magister.
— End quote
I agree. Although not fully, I believe that those posts should appear in Magisterium / Conclave / Executive subforums.
— Begin quote from ____
“Contribute” to TEP Evolved, “Join and Contribute” to an Executive ministry, complete some tasks in the TEP University : these things are a) just done formally but not really; b) scarcely verified and 3) impossible to really pin someone down to. So why should we keep them?
— End quote
As for the TEP Evolved part, I fully agree. I see no relations between TEP Evolved and Magisterium. I, however, believe that Executive part should be kept. We need, as mentioned, people with experience and knowledge. The fact, that they are not verified, is not the law’s fault. If verification isn’t good enough, then we should enforce resolution to the SO, that would require Minister / Delegate / Whoever mentioned to actually back the participation of a given applicant.
In general, I understand the idea of Magisterium being more opened for citizens. But now, there is a question - do we really want unqualified and unnown staff? Accepting such a proposal would destabilize whole region. As literally anyone could become a citizen and apply to Magisterium right away. We do need people that are verified, we do need people that have the knowledge, we do need people that have the experience, we do need people that are active. Letting literally anyone in, would create situations and laws, that may come out to be dangerous for the region. And this way, I would be afraid of making a coup easier.
Interesting points and I will reply at length later this weekend.
As to the Delegate and his latest comments, either he apologises to the Magisterium or I’m done working with this Delegate.
I, sadly, have to agree with Delegate’s words and endorse them. Although we could say, that they were harsh and direct, maybe that is what is needed, because only the truth has been spoken here.
I myself find it ridiculous that six personas, even if verified and loyal to TEP, are deciding about the most important part of this region - legislature. There was times when Magisterium was a vivid and huge part of the government, counting up to 30 Magisters. But as of now, I find it shameful and ridiculous, that there is six people deciding about other (estimated amount) 5 500 Residents. That shouldn’t take a place in a democratic region. And that is, why I will advocate for Magisters being elected by Citizens in Regional Elections, just like the Delegate is.
I’m just going to pop in a little bit.
I’m not sure why the Magisterium is being insulted by the Delegate, but oki.
I’m not sure how newcomers are assaulted besides the question threads; I’m not digging at Fedele but simply not understanding. I thought the fact no one joined was lack of recruitment, which I do, in fact, take part of the blame of fullheartedly.
Unless Magisters past have been maliciously DMing newbie applicants and telling them to screw off, again, not sure how the Magisterium assaults them.
Unless it’s the requirements, in which case, I get it. Not sure why everyone is vipers, but I get the assualt part (maybe?). I honestly think strict requirements, those were just more to protect TEP from corrupt individuals and avoiding filling the Magisterium with people who don’t care after a while.
Probably should think more in terms of: what does a Magister need and how can we prove it, rather than loosening the requirements. Or else, we will be back again, tightening everything in the future. I’m pretty sure there has been some direction in this thread that way, so yay!
I’d like to ask the Delegate to elaborate [using normal language that doesn’t insult someone directly], on what their statement meant for blind people like me who can’t see the facts.
*sorry if it sounds like nonsense because idk what’s going on, I’ll read up and edit. Should’ve done that before, whoops
Not gonna comment on anything else to keep some form of the tradition surrounding being an Arbiter
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— Begin quote from ____
I, sadly, have to agree with Delegate’s words and endorse them. Although we could say, that they were harsh and direct, maybe that is what is needed, because only the truth has been spoken here.
— End quote
Just no. You might agree with the sentiment. But insulting the Magisterium and cursing and scolding is nowhere near acceptable, certainly not from the Delegate.
I’ve also no idea where this is coming from. I had the impression our Delegate was somewhat of an adult. I’ll have to revisit that opinion it would seem.
The topic of this thread is the Standing Orders.
Let’s move it back there.
If you need to, create a new thread for the side-argument(s).
I just read this. I really don’t know what to think about the goings-on in this thread, other than I’m disappointed. This isn’t what should be going on in a Magisterium. We, all of us, need to work together instead of fight. And working together does afford difference of opinion. The Magisterium is doing its job by asking questions to the applicants. Six nations they may be, but they’re still allowed to question and ask. It may be frustrating, but trust that they are asking questions now rather than let unanswered questions cloud overhead.
I’m not going to tell people what to do with respect to this; they should already know what to do.
As for the current SO of the Magisterium, I have read over Dave’s recent revision. I’m thinking it over now. I kind of want to do a “pick four” and go that route, but I’m not sure. I should probably get some sleep.
Let me first say that I like Daveland’s approach by breaking this down into bite-sized amounts. That’s probably the best way to look at this, and he’s doing an excellent job as a provost by taking this approach. I like the way in which he has organized the flow of the Magisterium requirements, yet I still consider it too much. I’ve vacillated a bit in this thread, because I think a Magister in TEP should really know the region and speak on behalf of everyone in the region - from roleplayer to new nation to a conservative veteran nation. That being said, we also shouldn’t make a long list of how one becomes a Magister, otherwise it might turn off new players who could one day become well-articulated nations in our region. The Magisterium is but a facet of our republic-style government, which is kept in check by the delegate, and further kept in check by the conclave. That being said, I earlier spoke about a “pick four” approach, as four sounds like a nice number. We’re currently at 7, which means we need to pare things down a bit. 1.1.2 and 1.1.3 can easily be incorporated into one point. 1.1.1 and 1.1.5 are of course essential. 1.1.5 I can see as not being essential, but, based on how questioning went this weekend, could be a major sticking point for a prospective Magister - they would have to answer why they would state why they chose not to endorse the delegate and all viziers, and that should affect how one votes in the Magisterium when it comes down to approving or denying a candidate. 1.1.6 I can see as a separation of powers and/or just requiring a lot. Is it better for someone to serve in the executive first, then the Magisterium, or the Magisterium with the option of serving in the executive?
Look at what I’ve added into 1.2. I’ve added a recommendation that whatever application should be in the region for 14 or more days. I think this is fair as it would slow a sudden influx of nations from jumping in and applying. I also moved 1.1.5 into the recommendation sub-category
[spoiler]SECTION I. ACCEPTANCE OF MAGISTERS
1.1- Citizens wishing to become Magisters must do all of the following:
1.1.1- Be a Citizen of TEP;
1.1.2- Be a WA Member with their TEP resident nation and supply the name of their resident WA nation, except if their WA nation is involved in EPSA, in which case it may remain classified;
1.1.3- Complete a Public Official Disclosure Form;
1.1.4- Recite the Magister’s Pledge in the appropriate designated location in the Magisterium sub-forum.
1.2- It is recommended, but not required, that Citizens wishing to become Magisters do the following:
1.2.1- Complete a course, practicum, tenure or academic publication in The East Pacific University;
1.2.2- Post on the RMB at least three times;
1.2.3- Contribute to ‘TEP Evolved’ subforum at least three times;
1.2.4- Be a native of 14 days or more in the region;
1.2.5- Endorse the delegate and all viziers.
1.3-The Magisterium shall, by majority vote, decide whether a new Magister will be accepted.
1.4- Citizens who are denied acceptance into the Magisterium may appeal the decision to the Conclave;
1.4.1- The appellant must present a petition on Magister Acceptance to the Conclave, listing their qualifications for the Magisterium and their reasons why they feel the original Magisterium vote should be declared invalid. The petition must be endorsed by at least 5 citizens;
1.4.2- The contents of the petition will be reviewed by the Conclave and if valid, the Conclave will instruct the Provost to present the contents of the petition to the Magisterium and schedule a new election;
1.4.3- If elected by a majority vote of the Magisterium, the applicant will be accepted into the Magisterium.
1.4.4- There is no appeal of a second Magister election, however, the candidate can reapply in 30 days from the end of the first or the second election.
[/spoiler]
I’ve also discussed a quota requirement that would replace the WA requirement. I’m not sure how this would look, but I believe it’d simply have 1.1.2 moved to the recommendation section while having a point added to the voting procedure that would only have X number of votes counted for nations involved in a particular region outside of TEP. It seems complicated, so I will refrain from that for now, unless it gains traction, in which case I can try to draft something up.
In regards to the acceptance of Magisters. I have one small gripe. Yes it is in respect to the WA requirement but it’s not that you expect. When Ram, someone I have always butted heads with, applied for the Magisterium he was denied because his WA is in a different region and that is likely what lead him to rage quit once again but I digress to that point. While me and Ram have major differences of opinions and even if in the end… it’s likely for the best. It still just struck me as wrong.
Would it be something to discuss for former Delegates, Ministers, Magisters, Respected Community Members, etc to be allowed an exemption to that clause? I’m for people to spread their wings a little in NS – it’s something I did.
— Begin quote from ____
In regards to the acceptance of Magisters. I have one small gripe. Yes it is in respect to the WA requirement but it’s not that you expect. When Ram, someone I have always butted heads with, applied for the Magisterium he was denied because his WA is in a different region and that is likely what lead him to rage quit once again but I digress to that point. While me and Ram have major differences of opinions and even if in the end… it’s likely for the best. It still just struck me as wrong.
Would it be something to discuss for former Delegates, Ministers, Magisters, Respected Community Members, etc to be allowed an exemption to that clause? I’m for people to spread their wings a little in NS – it’s something I did.
— End quote
Why was he unwilling to move it here?
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— Begin quote from ____
— Begin quote from ____
In regards to the acceptance of Magisters. I have one small gripe. Yes it is in respect to the WA requirement but it’s not that you expect. When Ram, someone I have always butted heads with, applied for the Magisterium he was denied because his WA is in a different region and that is likely what lead him to rage quit once again but I digress to that point. While me and Ram have major differences of opinions and even if in the end… it’s likely for the best. It still just struck me as wrong.
Would it be something to discuss for former Delegates, Ministers, Magisters, Respected Community Members, etc to be allowed an exemption to that clause? I’m for people to spread their wings a little in NS – it’s something I did.
— End quote
Why was he unwilling to move it here?
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— End quote
Never asked. Doesn’t matter at this point. Ram was a former Delegate and Global Moderator. He’s been trusted with the region and the forum at one point. For someone of that caliber even if you disagree with that particular person’s current opinions and choice of the location of WA nation… should we have a little flexibility in this area? Maybe not. But at the same time it wouldn’t hurt to have just a little.
— Begin quote from ____
— Begin quote from ____
— Begin quote from ____
In regards to the acceptance of Magisters. I have one small gripe. Yes it is in respect to the WA requirement but it’s not that you expect. When Ram, someone I have always butted heads with, applied for the Magisterium he was denied because his WA is in a different region and that is likely what lead him to rage quit once again but I digress to that point. While me and Ram have major differences of opinions and even if in the end… it’s likely for the best. It still just struck me as wrong.
Would it be something to discuss for former Delegates, Ministers, Magisters, Respected Community Members, etc to be allowed an exemption to that clause? I’m for people to spread their wings a little in NS – it’s something I did.
— End quote
— End quote
Why was he unwilling to move it here?
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Never asked. Doesn’t matter at this point. Ram was a former Delegate and Global Moderator. He’s been trusted with the region and the forum at one point. For someone of that caliber even if you disagree with their particular person’s current opinions and choice of the location of WA nation… should we have a little flexibility in this area? Maybe not. But at the same time it wouldn’t hurt to have just a little.
— End quote
It certainly does matter if their priorities have changed.
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— Begin quote from ____
— Begin quote from ____
— Begin quote from ____
— Begin quote from ____
In regards to the acceptance of Magisters. I have one small gripe. Yes it is in respect to the WA requirement but it’s not that you expect. When Ram, someone I have always butted heads with, applied for the Magisterium he was denied because his WA is in a different region and that is likely what lead him to rage quit once again but I digress to that point. While me and Ram have major differences of opinions and even if in the end… it’s likely for the best. It still just struck me as wrong.
Would it be something to discuss for former Delegates, Ministers, Magisters, Respected Community Members, etc to be allowed an exemption to that clause? I’m for people to spread their wings a little in NS – it’s something I did.
— End quote
— End quote
— End quote
Why was he unwilling to move it here?
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Never asked. Doesn’t matter at this point. Ram was a former Delegate and Global Moderator. He’s been trusted with the region and the forum at one point. For someone of that caliber even if you disagree with their particular person’s current opinions and choice of the location of WA nation… should we have a little flexibility in this area? Maybe not. But at the same time it wouldn’t hurt to have just a little.
It certainly does matter if their priorities have changed.
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— End quote
No disagreement with you there.
— Begin quote from ____
It certainly does matter if their priorities have changed.
— End quote
Exactly. It is natural for people who play this game to change regions, and subsequently their loyalties, over periods of time. I don’t see why we would give special privilege to previous members of the region, no matter their prior significance, just because they were here before. If they made this same commitment previously and now can’t handle making it again, then there’s something to be said about that. The Magisterium should be an institution that contains individuals who make TEP their top priority.