Discussion on Resident's Rights

I speak as a citizen with the right to debate (and therefore, if not propose legislation, to start a debate for potential legislation), on this matter. :smiley:

Another thing, I know about the TSP and Osiris statements and wish to state while they aren’t the sole reason for me asking for such a discussion, they do play a small part. I ain’t gonna lie. But I think we’re fine as we are, but we could become even better. I was gonna hold back until the Magisterium calmed down, but then again, why not have more discussion? We may get potential candidates interested that way if we’re active…

Resident’s rights. I think we should have them. There are no rights given to residents under the Concordat, and just to be made sure, I asked the Conclave: Advisory Question on Article F of the Concordat - The East Pacific - Tapatalk

(My opinion on this would be opposing to it, but if there’s a precedent and it’s been asked numerous times before, then my opinion would be wrong.)

I’ve mentioned this as my main point, but the thing was that in the past of the East Pacific, citizenship used to be much easier to get. You were never denied and all you had to do was ratify the Concordat on our forums. I’m unsure if the forums were as confusing back then like so many claims they are now, but it’s definitely easier to copy and paste a sentence, rather fill out an application when you don’t know what BBC code is.

So theoretically (if they had the age limit of 13 back then), the only requirements were you were 13 or older, made an account, and followed directions to ratify the Concordat. At that point, almost all the people who cared about TEP at that time could become a citizen easily, if they chose to do so. So residents’ rights were no issue back then, due to the relative ease of getting citizenship back then.

Nowadays, however, it’s a different story. Our forums are accused of being confusing, our citizenship application (while not exhaustive in the slightest), is a bit harder than copying and pasting a sentence. Another big thing though is our requirement for a private IP address. While I understand it’s for security purposes, the fact is that some people simply cannot pay to have Wi-Fi, and mainly play NS through school, work, or in the library. We also nowadays, deny citizenship to individuals to who we are suspicious about, or who are a part of blacklisted organizations (one former example would be the Black Hawks).

Also, we have an age requirement due to law.

So while most cases are security threats, the fact is that many innocent residents can’t get citizenship because either they’re too young, or their IP address is not private. They’re also piled on with the people who don’t care about citizenship and the threats to our security. They’re guaranteed no rights. There has been at least one example of a TEPer who lied about their age to access our forums, and while I won’t reveal their name, it goes to show what some people are willing to do. Lying about our age on the internet may seem like no big deal, like pirating anime (shifty eyes), but it’s still legitimately breaking US law, and mayhaps the laws of other countries as well.

Just because some people are under 13 or have no private IP address doesn’t mean that they don’t care about the game/nor always spammers or hackers.

Obviously, I’m not asking to give citizenship to everyone again, because that’s plain stupid. But I don’t see why we should deny residents some basic rights. While Delegates in the past and present have not abused this feature, there is no telling what can happen in the future. The future is full of surprises, and we should be ready for them.

I’m aware this is could be a pain to legislate, but I feel it’s necessary for our region.

Here are some basic rights I think residents should have:

  1. Residents cannot be banned if they have not broken the regional law of the East Pacific (as applies to residents*).
  2. If residents have broken regional law, then they shall be ejected or banned at the discretion of the Delegate with notice of the ban at the time right before or after the action, with the reason for such a ban being given. If there is a specific process for banning, then the Delegate must follow that process before banning/ejecting residents (EX: Endorsement Cap Act states you must give 3 days notice before ejection).
  3. If residents feel that the ban/ejection is false, then they shall have the right to appeal to the Conclave (with the exceptions of bans done due to trolling, spamming, or flamming on the RMB or forums, in which case, they cannot appeal. Alternatively, they also cannot appeal if they have already been put on trial prior to banning.)
  4. If for whatever reason, the resident is unable to attend the trial on the forums due to age restrictions, then the resident shall choose a representative Citizen who will keep in contact with the resident and relay/represent the resident’s case to the court.
  5. Residents have the right to appeal the denial of their citizenship application to the Viceory and the Conclave, and shall be able to defend themselves in such circumstances.
  6. If a resident is banned, then they cannot apply for citizenship.
  7. Residents shall have the right to free speech, exactly the same as Citizens.

I am aware there is a form of precedent on banning, but I believe the precedent can be changed if needed. Plus, in this case, the Delegate can still ban nations who are a significant threat. The rights are also a basic proposal and obviously subject to change! So here are two specific questions I want to place here, for all citizens and Magisters who want to discuss this, so as to help streamline discussions.

— Begin quote from ____

  1. Why should or should not residents have rights?
  2. What rights do you think residents should have if you are FOR them having some rights?

— End quote

*Note: Not all regional law mentions citizens, which is what I meant. I’ll have to check on this though. So that part may change in the future. :stuck_out_tongue:

Two things speaking as a forum administrator. I’ll speak as a Magister later.

  1. A private IP is your home or to an extent of wireless. Anyone that has the need to use a VPN, Proxy, Business, Corporate and to extent of School IPs shouldn’t be doing business here. History has shown with NS that these IPs are from people that are up to no good. We’re generally a very relaxed group when it comes to joining with having some flexibilitybut these are principles forum administration will not budge on.

  2. And legally it does matter if someone is under the age of 13. We only accept 13+ to avoid COOPA Law requirements that a parent must provide a written consent. By having this requirement we are legally obligated to restrict anyone that is knowingly under the age of 13 to avoid possible fines. This is also in alignment with NS Forum, Discord, and Google Docs, etc.

For transparency and ease of records, I was debating with someone for a bit in TEP Hub.

Here’s our discussion records, so that anyone who wants to can access them here. :>

[spoiler]
[2:48 PM] Serge [Liberty and Tyranny]: The ban protection could be used against us. Im still conflicted about it tbh.
[2:55 PM] joWhatup: Ban protection is somewhat problematic. People could be giving an entire shitshow over wether they were banjected for a legit reason (denying they were trolling, for example). I dont feel like we need it, either: if you just behave and am somewhat active, no way you’re going to be banned.
[2:58 PM] everyone: at the same time it’s to prevent potential abuse in the future
[2:58 PM] everyone: Fedele is just doing the marisupial thing now, alright
[2:58 PM] everyone: but what about if a Delegate decides to eject the RMB RP community?
[2:59 PM] everyone: most of them aren’t citizens, but they’re active
[2:59 PM] everyone: yet, there is nothing guaranteeing the right for residents to appeal bans
[2:59 PM] everyone: literally nothing gives residents any protection
[3:00 PM] everyone: it’s a playground that no delegate has abused yet because they’re all beautiful people
[3:00 PM] everyone: but what if the next Delegate after fedele is different
[3:00 PM] everyone: o rthe next
[3:00 PM] everyone: even one term can be catastrophic
[3:01 PM] joWhatup: Isnt that kinda… our responsibility to ensure we elect good delegates? From my perspective, its unlikely that we will elect someone who is not very nice, and the ban protection might cause issues.
[3:01 PM] everyone: in that case, why do we have the right to a trial for citizens?
[3:02 PM] everyone: nothing says a good natured citizen can become a spammer down the road
[3:02 PM] everyone: sorry if I sound like im attacking, my dog is playing E V E R Y W HE  R E
[3:02 PM] everyone: don’t need him pissing somewhere for mah ma to get angrya bout
[3:04 PM] joWhatup: Id say citizens are more important politically: if a delegate would be elected narrowly, and sees some citizens voting against him as a threat, he could ban them and lower the threshold for him being reelected. If they wouldnt have the right to trial, that could go unpunished.
[3:05 PM] everyone: good point
[3:05 PM] joWhatup: “nothing says a good natured citizen can become a spammer down the road”
Can or cant?
[3:05 PM] everyone: can’t

[3:06 PM] joWhatup: Ah, okay.
[3:06 PM] everyone: update, my dog’s in the cage
[3:06 PM] everyone: ;-;
[3:07 PM] joWhatup: Then yes, but it would be unlikely: if people are willing to go theigh the process of joining the forums and ratifying the Concordat, they are less likely to be out for trolling/spamming.
[3:10 PM] everyone: true, but it’s still plausible
[3:11 PM] everyone: and I’m gonna be honest here, and I won’t be dissing Fedele
[3:11 PM] everyone: but no one thought TEP would ban a bunch of residents who have default flags and no WA
[3:11 PM] everyone: While most of them were puppets, eh
[3:11 PM] Bachtendekuppen: It’s been happening for a while now.
[3:11 PM] everyone: still, no one thought it would happen
[3:12 PM] everyone: yeah
[3:12 PM] Bachtendekuppen: I was the only candidate protesting against that policy the last election.
[3:12 PM] everyone: but no one thought it could occur before Yuno
[3:12 PM] Bachtendekuppen: People decided to re-elected the Delegate that had that policy.
[3:12 PM] everyone: shit
[3:12 PM] everyone: sigh
[3:12 PM] Bachtendekuppen: Hence I conclude that the Marsupial-policy is democratically backed in TEP.
[3:13 PM] everyone: my point is that whether it was backed or not by TEP, legitimately no one saw Fedele doing it
[3:13 PM] Bachtendekuppen: It was all over TEP for months?
[3:13 PM] everyone: and it can turn serious down the road
[3:13 PM] everyone: I meant when Yuno was Delegate
[3:13 PM] everyone: or before
[3:13 PM] everyone: not while it was happening
[3:14 PM] everyone: it was almost unthinkable that residents would be purged like that. No one spared a thought to it during Yuno and before
[3:14 PM] Bachtendekuppen: Idk I wouldn’t say Yuno or Drachen wouldn’t have done that if they had the idea.
[3:14 PM] everyone: maybe they wouldn’t
[3:14 PM] Bachtendekuppen: I agree it wouldn’t have crossed anyones minds in TEP before that.
[3:14 PM] everyone: ¯_(ツ)
[3:14 PM] everyone: so it can get worse in the future. A Delegate may take it much more further and much more seriously
[3:15 PM] everyone: maybe citizens won’t elect the person then tho, so my argument is flawed
[3:15 PM] Bachtendekuppen: But then again, as far as legal and democratically new policies go, that’s what new policies are. New.
[3:15 PM] joWhatup: I mean yeah, but ejecting active people who are doing nothing wrong? That is just downright stupid for any delegate.
[3:15 PM] :sun_with_face::skull: Fidel :skull::sun_with_face:: Xoriet used to eject quite a few residents
[3:15 PM] everyone: but how do we know who will become a stupid Delegate
[3:15 PM] joWhatup: No as in
[3:15 PM] :sun_with_face::skull: Fidel :skull::sun_with_face:: The marsupial thing is unique but ejecting residents without stated reason isn’t
[3:15 PM] Paki of the East: When I look like a good option
[3:16 PM] joWhatup: Its a really self destructive decision
[3:16 PM] joWhatup: You want people to be active and your activity will lead people to reelect you
[3:16 PM] :sun_with_face::skull: Fidel :skull::sun_with_face:: Yeah
[3:16 PM] everyone: tru
[3:16 PM] Bachtendekuppen: No, evidently the legal possibility to eject residents in longstanding precedent of the Conclave.
[3:16 PM] joWhatup: If you destroy that activity, you destroy your own chance at being reelected.
[3:16 PM] everyone: but what if that’s their goal
[3:16 PM] everyone: ¯_(ツ)

[3:17 PM] everyone: at this point it’s nearly impossible so
[3:17 PM] everyone: tru
[3:17 PM] everyone: but all things should be considered
[3:17 PM] everyone: i worry too much tbh
[3:17 PM] joWhatup: A bit :stuck_out_tongue:

{END OF LOGS}
[/spoiler]

Everyone=Me
Serge=Magister Libertanny
Paki=Pakitsk (I didn’t even notice him there RIP)
Fidel= Delegate Fedele
Bach is Bach. XD
joWhatup= I believe Citizen Altamoras (I think? Not sure)

*Neat trick, if you guys wanna move discord conversations to the forums. Just copy and paste the part of the discussion you want (highlight the convo like a normal piece of text), then paste it into the posting box on the forums. May wanna do it as plain text. Discord sets up the times, names, and who said what by itself, so it’s handy. :stuck_out_tongue:

While your concerns are not entirely untrue.

However here are a few points I feel like I would address.

“We also nowadays, deny citizenship to individuals to who we are suspicious about, or who are a part of blacklisted organizations (one former example would be the Black Hawks).”

This is not true. Yuga/Lord Dominator is a Lieutenant in TBH. Yet, they are a citizen and also a Deputy Minister(used to be our Minister of WA affairs). However, certain restrictions are still necessary for the security of our region.

I don’t think any Delegate, current or future would be ejecting active residents for no reason(Even if there are no laws protecting them). If they would, I’m sure TEP wouldn’t just keep quiet. We are a democratic region with adequate checks and balances.

I would seriously ask residents to apply for citizenship as soon as they can. So they can be protected by our laws. As I’m not in favor of having some laws to “protect” residents because I don’t see a need for it. That’s the perks of becoming a citizen.

I think what we should want is to make citizenship easy and accessible while maintaining a sense of security. We want to encourage and push residents towards citizenship which would give them full rights under the Concordat and allow them to really experience TEP fully (if that’s what they wish to do). This is why being a citizen of this region is special. Passing some distinction like this lessens that “special quality” of being a full Citizen and gaining everything that goes along with it.

— Begin quote from ____

I don’t think any Delegate, current or future would be ejecting active residents for no reason(Even if there are no laws protecting them). If they would, I’m sure TEP wouldn’t just keep quiet. We are a democratic region with adequate checks and balances.

— End quote

I disagree with this line of thinking, its basically ‘let’s wait for something to go wrong and then we’ll make a fuss about it’. In fact, Zukchiva has brought up this proposal for exactly this reason - avoiding a potential worst-case scenario where the assumed rights of residents are exploited in future by an unruly Delegate.

As for the substantive matter of the proposal, I agree that residents should have rights - they live in our region and I think that should guarantee them some basic protections within our law.

I wonder if it might be worth enshrining the right to appeal decisions to the Conclave or otherwise be represented as its own right for everything, not just ejection and denial of citizenship? For example, perhaps we have some legislated RMB rules that they are reprimanded for allegedly breaking. That seems like a fairly basic right to be able to appeal that, protesting potentially illegal acts from within the system.

— Begin quote from ____

— Begin quote from ____

I don’t think any Delegate, current or future would be ejecting active residents for no reason(Even if there are no laws protecting them). If they would, I’m sure TEP wouldn’t just keep quiet. We are a democratic region with adequate checks and balances.

— End quote

I disagree with this line of thinking, its basically ‘let’s wait for something to go wrong and then we’ll make a fuss about it’. In fact, Zukchiva has brought up this proposal for exactly this reason - avoiding a potential worst-case scenario where the assumed rights of residents are exploited in future by an unruly Delegate.

As for the substantive matter of the proposal, I agree that residents should have rights - they live in our region and I think that should guarantee them some basic protections within our law.

I wonder if it might be worth enshrining the right to appeal decisions to the Conclave or otherwise be represented as its own right for everything, not just ejection and denial of citizenship? For example, perhaps we have some legislated RMB rules that they are reprimanded for allegedly breaking. That seems like a fairly basic right to be able to appeal that, protesting potentially illegal acts from within the system.

— End quote

If a delegate is deemed “unruly”, the magisterium can remove a delegate.

The delegate is not “untouchable”. So hence, why I don’t believe any delegate, current or future would do “stupid things” like that.

Like I said, if a resident wants more “rights”, they should apply for a citizenship. It is really not that difficult to apply for citizenship as it is made out to be here. If they meet the requirements, their citizenship will be accepted. That is, if they are above the age of 13 and not a suspected “espionage” or something like that. If it is the latter, then they shouldn’t even be in the region in the first place. So why would they need rights?

Because if a resident is suspected of being an “espionage” and the such. Having their citizenship rejected because of that. And if they do turn out to be an espionage, by giving them “rights”, they could actually appeal, and that would actually waste the time of our legal system to open up a case and investigate it.

Bottom line is, I feel like there’s pros and cons to both sides. Just in my opinion, there’ll be more cons than pros if we were to go ahead with this.

— Begin quote from ____

“We also nowadays, deny citizenship to individuals to who we are suspicious about, or who are a part of blacklisted organizations (one former example would be the Black Hawks).”

This is not true. Yuga/Lord Dominator is a Lieutenant in TBH. Yet, they are a citizen and also a Deputy Minister(used to be our Minister of WA affairs). However, certain restrictions are still necessary for the security of our region.

— End quote

True, but Yuga was not a citizen until after TEP unlisted TBH.

That’s what I meant by a former example, we no longer have TBH blacklisted. Sorry for not being clear! :stuck_out_tongue:

— Begin quote from ____

I don’t think any Delegate, current or future would be ejecting active residents for no reason(Even if there are no laws protecting them). If they would, I’m sure TEP wouldn’t just keep quiet. We are a democratic region with adequate checks and balances.

— End quote

You are correct, it’s highly unlikely. But the thing is, there’s always a small chance.

And you’re right, we wouldn’t keep quiet. But we would do… what? Banning residents en masse is not a crime. It isn’t even recommended against by TEP law. So then, we would have to either continue letting that person boot residents like no tomorrow or illegally remove the Delegate. Either that, or we would have to pass emergency Concordat amendments (or maybe legislation?), which would take at least a week and a half. It’s unlikely but possible.

— Begin quote from ____

I would seriously ask residents to apply for citizenship as soon as they can. So they can be protected by our laws. As I’m not in favor of having some laws to “protect” residents because I don’t see a need for it. That’s the perks of becoming a citizen.

— End quote

— Begin quote from ____

I think what we should want is to make citizenship easy and accessible while maintaining a sense of security. We want to encourage and push residents towards citizenship which would give them full rights under the Concordat and allow them to really experience TEP fully (if that’s what they wish to do). This is why being a citizen of this region is special. Passing some distinction like this lessens that “special quality” of being a full Citizen and gaining everything that goes along with it.

— End quote

I can’t argue with that. This fact is more based on opinion than anything else.

Would you be willing to make citizenship less engaging and special, in order to give more rights to non-citizens?

So you guys have a point there.

— Begin quote from ____

If a delegate is deemed “unruly”, the magisterium can remove a delegate.

The delegate is not “untouchable”. So hence, why I don’t believe any delegate, current or future would do “stupid things” like that.

— End quote

No, they cannot. A Delegate can only be removed for “absence or high crime.” But residents do not have rights. How can it be considered a crime, if it’s a legal action?

A Delegate can become angry at the game. We’ve seen an example, such as Perg, who made a very angry speech before leaving NS. I wouldn’t put it past an angry, nonsensical, about to quit the game Delegate to banning a bunch of residents in a purge of rage. But then again, the likelihood is nigh impossible, so probably not.

— Begin quote from ____

Like I said, if a resident wants more “rights”, they should apply for a citizenship. It is really not that difficult to apply for citizenship as it is made out to be here. If they meet the requirements, their citizenship will be accepted. That is, if they are above the age of 13 and not a suspected “espionage” or something like that. If it is the latter, then they shouldn’t even be in the region in the first place. So why would they need rights?

— End quote

You’re right, it isn’t. But perspective matters much. I also should’ve said relatively harder, because again, it really isn’t that difficult. But it is to many people. I know I, for one, found it an extremely weird experience to fill out that application and become a citizen.

We have around 400 citizens on forums. And around 5000 residents in the East Pacific. If even 1/4 of those are natives, that’s still more than 2x the number of citizens we have.
And I can bet you that those 1000 citizens are either roleplay on our RMB, on the forums, or answering issues. Just because they have a different play style doesn’t mean that they should be invalidated from rights. Why should they have to mess with a part of NationStates that they don’t want too? Why are we forcing them?

— Begin quote from ____

— Begin quote from ____

“We also nowadays, deny citizenship to individuals to who we are suspicious about, or who are a part of blacklisted organizations (one former example would be the Black Hawks).”

This is not true. Yuga/Lord Dominator is a Lieutenant in TBH. Yet, they are a citizen and also a Deputy Minister(used to be our Minister of WA affairs). However, certain restrictions are still necessary for the security of our region.

— End quote

True, but Yuga was not a citizen until after TEP unlisted TBH.

That’s what I meant by a former example, we no longer have TBH blacklisted. Sorry for not being clear! :stuck_out_tongue:

— Begin quote from ____

I don’t think any Delegate, current or future would be ejecting active residents for no reason(Even if there are no laws protecting them). If they would, I’m sure TEP wouldn’t just keep quiet. We are a democratic region with adequate checks and balances.

— End quote

You are correct, it’s highly unlikely. But the thing is, there’s always a small chance.

And you’re right, we wouldn’t keep quiet. But we would do… what? Banning residents en masse is not a crime. It isn’t even recommended against by TEP law. So then, we would have to either continue letting that person boot residents like no tomorrow or illegally remove the Delegate. Either that, or we would have to pass emergency Concordat amendments (or maybe legislation?), which would take at least a week and a half. It’s unlikely but possible.

— Begin quote from ____

I would seriously ask residents to apply for citizenship as soon as they can. So they can be protected by our laws. As I’m not in favor of having some laws to “protect” residents because I don’t see a need for it. That’s the perks of becoming a citizen.

— End quote

— Begin quote from ____

I think what we should want is to make citizenship easy and accessible while maintaining a sense of security. We want to encourage and push residents towards citizenship which would give them full rights under the Concordat and allow them to really experience TEP fully (if that’s what they wish to do). This is why being a citizen of this region is special. Passing some distinction like this lessens that “special quality” of being a full Citizen and gaining everything that goes along with it.

— End quote

I can’t argue with that. This fact is more based on opinion than anything else.

Would you be willing to make citizenship less engaging and special, in order to give more rights to non-citizens?

So you guys have a point there.

— Begin quote from ____

If a delegate is deemed “unruly”, the magisterium can remove a delegate.

The delegate is not “untouchable”. So hence, why I don’t believe any delegate, current or future would do “stupid things” like that.

— End quote

No, they cannot. A Delegate can only be removed for “absence or high crime.” But residents do not have rights. How can it be considered a crime, if it’s a legal action?

A Delegate can become angry at the game. We’ve seen an example, such as Perg, who made a very angry speech before leaving NS. I wouldn’t put it past an angry, nonsensical, about to quit the game Delegate to banning a bunch of residents in a purge of rage. But then again, the likelihood is nigh impossible, so probably not.

— End quote

— Begin quote from ____

Like I said, if a resident wants more “rights”, they should apply for a citizenship. It is really not that difficult to apply for citizenship as it is made out to be here. If they meet the requirements, their citizenship will be accepted. That is, if they are above the age of 13 and not a suspected “espionage” or something like that. If it is the latter, then they shouldn’t even be in the region in the first place. So why would they need rights?

— End quote

— Begin quote from ____

You’re right, it isn’t. But perspective matters much. I also should’ve said relatively harder, because again, it really isn’t that difficult. But it is to many people. I know I, for one, found it an extremely weird experience to fill out that application and become a citizen.

We have around 400 citizens on forums. And around 5000 residents in the East Pacific. If even 1/4 of those are natives, that’s still more than 2x the number of citizens we have.
And I can bet you that those 1000 citizens are either roleplay on our RMB, on the forums, or answering issues. Just because they have a different play style doesn’t mean that they should be invalidated from rights. Why should they have to mess with a part of NationStates that they don’t want too? Why are we forcing them?

— End quote

It is laid out in the Concordat how a Delegate can be removed. The main way is by 2/3 vote of the Viziers if they have acted to destroy the concordat(which this isn’t the case). There is also a way for the Magisterium(absence or high crime) to remove them.

Other than that, I’m not necessarily heavily opposed to this. Just slightly, because I feel like there will be more cons than pros. But you have made a fair point, overall.

— Begin quote from ____

— Begin quote from ____

— Begin quote from ____

“We also nowadays, deny citizenship to individuals to who we are suspicious about, or who are a part of blacklisted organizations (one former example would be the Black Hawks).”

This is not true. Yuga/Lord Dominator is a Lieutenant in TBH. Yet, they are a citizen and also a Deputy Minister(used to be our Minister of WA affairs). However, certain restrictions are still necessary for the security of our region.

— End quote

— End quote

True, but Yuga was not a citizen until after TEP unlisted TBH.

That’s what I meant by a former example, we no longer have TBH blacklisted. Sorry for not being clear! :stuck_out_tongue:

— Begin quote from ____

I don’t think any Delegate, current or future would be ejecting active residents for no reason(Even if there are no laws protecting them). If they would, I’m sure TEP wouldn’t just keep quiet. We are a democratic region with adequate checks and balances.

— End quote

You are correct, it’s highly unlikely. But the thing is, there’s always a small chance.

And you’re right, we wouldn’t keep quiet. But we would do… what? Banning residents en masse is not a crime. It isn’t even recommended against by TEP law. So then, we would have to either continue letting that person boot residents like no tomorrow or illegally remove the Delegate. Either that, or we would have to pass emergency Concordat amendments (or maybe legislation?), which would take at least a week and a half. It’s unlikely but possible.

— Begin quote from ____

I would seriously ask residents to apply for citizenship as soon as they can. So they can be protected by our laws. As I’m not in favor of having some laws to “protect” residents because I don’t see a need for it. That’s the perks of becoming a citizen.

— End quote

— Begin quote from ____

I think what we should want is to make citizenship easy and accessible while maintaining a sense of security. We want to encourage and push residents towards citizenship which would give them full rights under the Concordat and allow them to really experience TEP fully (if that’s what they wish to do). This is why being a citizen of this region is special. Passing some distinction like this lessens that “special quality” of being a full Citizen and gaining everything that goes along with it.

— End quote

I can’t argue with that. This fact is more based on opinion than anything else.

Would you be willing to make citizenship less engaging and special, in order to give more rights to non-citizens?

So you guys have a point there.

— Begin quote from ____

If a delegate is deemed “unruly”, the magisterium can remove a delegate.

The delegate is not “untouchable”. So hence, why I don’t believe any delegate, current or future would do “stupid things” like that.

— End quote

No, they cannot. A Delegate can only be removed for “absence or high crime.” But residents do not have rights. How can it be considered a crime, if it’s a legal action?

A Delegate can become angry at the game. We’ve seen an example, such as Perg, who made a very angry speech before leaving NS. I wouldn’t put it past an angry, nonsensical, about to quit the game Delegate to banning a bunch of residents in a purge of rage. But then again, the likelihood is nigh impossible, so probably not.

— Begin quote from ____

Like I said, if a resident wants more “rights”, they should apply for a citizenship. It is really not that difficult to apply for citizenship as it is made out to be here. If they meet the requirements, their citizenship will be accepted. That is, if they are above the age of 13 and not a suspected “espionage” or something like that. If it is the latter, then they shouldn’t even be in the region in the first place. So why would they need rights?

— End quote

— Begin quote from ____

You’re right, it isn’t. But perspective matters much. I also should’ve said relatively harder, because again, it really isn’t that difficult. But it is to many people. I know I, for one, found it an extremely weird experience to fill out that application and become a citizen.

We have around 400 citizens on forums. And around 5000 residents in the East Pacific. If even 1/4 of those are natives, that’s still more than 2x the number of citizens we have.
And I can bet you that those 1000 citizens are either roleplay on our RMB, on the forums, or answering issues. Just because they have a different play style doesn’t mean that they should be invalidated from rights. Why should they have to mess with a part of NationStates that they don’t want too? Why are we forcing them?

— End quote

It is laid out in the Concordat how a Delegate can be removed. The main way is by 2/3 vote of the Viziers if they have acted to destroy the concordat(which this isn’t the case). There is also a way for the Magisterium to remove them.

Other than that, I’m not necessarily heavily opposed to this. Just slightly, because I feel like there will be more cons than pros. But you have made a fair point, overall.

— End quote

If I have to be honest, you’ve made a good point as well.

I understand that there are, generally, more cons than pros to this. However, I think in this case, what the pros actually are matters more than the fact that they become outnumbered by the cons.

When it come to residents – we can give them basic protections under the Concordant. I’ll give you a draft idea and we can build on it.

Protections of Residents

  1. A Unprotected Resident is a nation located in The East Pacific that is not joined the World Assembly. They have no protections and can be ejected and banned from the region without reason.

  2. A Protected Resident is a nation located in The East Pacific that is a member of the World Assembly and has endorsed the Delegate and Viziers. They can not be unreasonably ejected or banned from the region without a public statement from the executive detailing the reasoning of any ejection or ban on the forum. A majority petition by Protected Residents and Citizens can be filed for an appeal with the Conclave but have no rights to legal representation or trial.

  3. A Verified Resident is a nation located in The East Pacific that is a member of the World Assembly and has claimed their residency on The East Pacific Off-Site forum for roleplay and World Assembly Center access. We recommend that they are members of the World Assembly and endorse the Delegate and Viziers but is not a requirement. They can not be unreasonably ejected or banned from the region and can appeal to the Conclave but have rights of legal representation or trial.

— Begin quote from ____

When it come to residents – we can give them basic protections under the Concordant. I’ll give you a draft idea and we can build on it.

Protections of Residents

  1. A Unprotected Resident is a nation located in The East Pacific that is not joined the World Assembly. They have no protections and can be ejected and banned from the region without reason.

  2. A Protected Resident is a nation located in The East Pacific that is a member of the World Assembly and has endorsed the Delegate and Viziers. They can not be unreasonably ejected or banned from the region without a public statement from the executive detailing the reasoning of any ejection or ban on the forum. A majority petition by Protected Residents and Citizens can be filed for an appeal with the Conclave but have no rights to legal representation or trial.

  3. A Verified Resident is a nation located in The East Pacific that is a member of the World Assembly and has claimed their residency on The East Pacific Off-Site forum for roleplay and World Assembly Center access. We recommend that they are members of the World Assembly and endorse the Delegate and Viziers but is not a requirement. They can not be unreasonably ejected or banned from the region and can appeal to the Conclave but have rights of legal representation or trial.

— End quote

While I can’t say that I particularly like this much, I do think this is probably the best way forward.

The Delegate can still ban, and the Conclave can still react. The world assembly is NOT difficult to join and is only a one time process, after which, people can continue to do what they want without care of the government of TEP.

I like the increased incentive to get on the forums as well. Maybe we’ll get more citizens as well.

I don’t have any improvements as of now, though. But I think this is an excellent compromise between security and allowing residents simple rights.

I have ideas. I can’t write legislation. Someone will come along and improve upon it.

— Begin quote from ____

I can’t argue with that. This fact is more based on opinion than anything else.

Would you be willing to make citizenship less engaging and special, in order to give more rights to non-citizens?

So you guys have a point there.

— End quote

I think that should be the primary focus of integration. I don’t think we really have a problem when it comes to the application or anything, it’s just a matter of persistent engagement and advertisement to gameside in order to pull new people to the Discord and Forum. There are ways we can improve that as a region and it should be a focus of everyone in the executive to encourage and welcome new people whether they work under the department for that or not. But yeah, kind of off topic I guess.

— Begin quote from ____

— Begin quote from ____

I can’t argue with that. This fact is more based on opinion than anything else.

Would you be willing to make citizenship less engaging and special, in order to give more rights to non-citizens?

So you guys have a point there.

— End quote

I think that should be the primary focus of integration. I don’t think we really have a problem when it comes to the application or anything, it’s just a matter of persistent engagement and advertisement to gameside in order to pull new people to the Discord and Forum. There are ways we can improve that as a region and it should be a focus of everyone in the executive to encourage and welcome new people whether they work under the department for that or not. But yeah, kind of off topic I guess.

— End quote

Nah, I can see that. But the fact is that not every resident wants anything to do with gameplay. A good example are roleplayers, who often don’t wish to mess with gameplay but yet need to stay in the region in order to interact with their roleplay communities. This is more evident in RMB RP, but I’m sure forum roleplay will also see a rise in residents as time goes on.

But still, you’re right as well. We should be advertising and focusing more on recruitment.

Speaking on behalf of TEP Evolved.

RP is already ahead of the region in this aspect by having an offering of masking for Residents to RP but it’s made clear the citizenship is highly recommended for rights; we even have a masking that anyone in NS can join and apply for a Multipass to also gain access to RP and design services. It’s still in its infant stages as it takes time to develop a marketing strategy. We don’t offer them any rights as we operate independently in a lot of aspects and that gives us a little more freedom to have these types of ideas and roll them out nearly immediately then work on marketing. If it becomes more official then we would work to roll out limitations to make citizenship a preferred option. Generally speaking between RP staff – we have realized during our ongoing redevelopment that the way citizenship operates is a turn off for members of the RMB RP community and to residents in general. They don’t see the benefits of a forum like we did when we all joined. It needs to be marketed as not just a forum but the capitol of the region. Also a rift does exist between forum users and RMB users that will take some times to mend. Giving them protections (not rights) is a olive branch.

As a side note. Wow 3 different versions of myself in one thread.

This reminds me of something that Todd proposed in 2016 and I think some of the ideas he presented then have some merit worth considering now.

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Does anyone have anything they would like to add? I know a lot of things are going on so I just wanted to bump this thread. If not we can work on a formal draft of my suggested resident protections as an amendment because we might as well get the easiest legislation done first.

Not for meee, think it works great

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I don’t think we’ve acknowledged some potential repercussions of this move. Granting any nation these rights because they simply reside within TEP can raise some security concerns. As we’ve been addressing elsewhere in the Magisterium, the process of citizenship/naturalization holds some fundamentally important security procedures before anyone is granted full rights and membership into the region. With these proposed changes, we would essentially be granting nations these rights without being able to vet them like we do for citizenship. Why does this matter? Well, we have a very recent and pretty good example of why this matters.

Recently it was found that one of our residents, Restoration of Eastern Kaiserreich, was propagating fascist/Nazi propaganda along with other racist and offensive material in what was considered an unofficial RMB RP Discord server that many TEPers took part in (both citizens and residents). Once this was uncovered and confirmed, administrators both off-site and in-game took action to remove him from Discords and subsequently eject and ban him from our region. They were able to easily make this decision because of the nature of the situation, the person, and also the fact that they weren’t a citizen. Blindly granting extensive rights to nations gameside can allow people like Restoration of Eastern Kaiserreich to solidify and establish a platform in TEP for their intolerable views and give us little ability, legally, to actually act on them. This is just one example, but people can also use this to create several puppets, have them all legally protected, and abuse that system so that they can’t be removed for perpetuating nefarious things that legally might be between the lines.

We have an official process for citizenship for a good reason and that’s so that people can go through security checks, both administratively OOC and also IC when it comes to their history in the game and within our region. This is essentially undermining the value of that process and the value of being a citizen here with fully granted rights under the Concordat.