Government Reform

Library of Gnidrah The East Pacific Archive Kelssek Legislative Records
1

So, there is a consensus that change is needed. Do we want a complete overhaul and an entirely new system and if so, what do we want it to look like?

For reference, this is the current Charter:

— Begin quote from ____

East Pacific Charter
Preamble

0.0 We, the assembled nations of the East Pacific, desiring a more prosperous and perfect region, do hereby gather to establish this Charter of the East Pacific.

Chapter 1: Government

1.0 The East Pacific Government shall be divided into three roles; Executive, Legislative, and Judiciary.
Executive

1.      This Charter does hereby vest supreme authority in the office of Delegate, and does appoint him sole executor of this charter and of any subsequent laws passed by the legislative branch.

1.      The delegate shall have ultimate control over membership of the region, and shall have the power to remove from the region any nation seen to be in contravention of this charter or subsequent laws passed by the legislative branch.

2.      The delegate shall be appointed as the representative of the nations of the East Pacific to the United Nations.

3.      Such power as is granted to the delegate as representative to the United Nations shall be used to further the interests of the nations of the East Pacific; he does agree to abide by the will of the nations in this matter, as shall be expressed by popular vote of the Ratified Nations of the East Pacific.

4.      The delegate shall be appointed as ambassador of the East Pacific to foreign regions, and shall have the power to make such treaties as are permissible under this charter, and do not violate the individual rights of nations.

5.      The delegate shall appoint advisors as he sees fit, and may designate to them any such powers as are granted to him under this charter.

6.      The delegate shall be elected by popular vote of those nations within the East Pacific who are themselves members of the UN.

7.      The delegate shall be appointed for life, or until such time as he chooses to stand down, at which point he may either direct the transference of power to a suitably appointed alternative, or allow open election among the UN nations.

8.      During the period of the delegate’s incumbency, all nations are actively prohibited from campaigning for the delegacy, and the legislative house is instructed to make such laws as are necessary to enforce this.

9.      In the event of the incapacitation of the delegate, power shall pass to a prior appointed successor, who shall be nominated by the delegate and approved by the legislative branch. Such appointed nations shall be exempt from clause 1.1.8.
Legislative

2.      This charter does hereby vest legislative authority with the Magisterial Assembly, and does charge them with the preservation and maintenance of this charter, and with the establishment of any laws necessary for its enforcement and as may be required for the well being of the region.

1.      The Assembly shall make laws by the popular vote of the Magisters. All laws must subsequently be approved by the delegate, who shall maintain power of veto.

2.      The Assembly is charged to make no law contrary to the word or will of this charter, such as shall be interpreted by the judicial branch.

3.      Being aware of the possibility of change, this charter does empower the Assembly to make amendments to the charter itself; such amendments must pass by a margin of 70% of the active members of the Assembly. Such amendments must be further approved by the delegate, and finally by popular vote of Ratified Nations.

4.      The Assembly is charged to appoint, by popular vote, a Consul, who shall be its representative to the executive and judicial branches, and to whom shall be appointed the task of maintaining order within the Assembly.

5.      Membership of the Assembly shall be eligible to all Ratified Nations of the East Pacific, who shall signal their desire to join by formal announcement, and who must then be seconded by another ratified nation, and finally must be approved by popular vote of the Ratified Nations.

6.      The Consul of the Assembly may, at his discretion, remove temporarily from the Assembly any seen to be acting in contravention to the word or will of this charter or subsequent laws passed by the Assembly. At his own choosing, or at the request of the nation in question, he must submit such evidence as he possesses to the judicial branch for ruling.

7.      At regular intervals to be no less than 5 and no more than 7 months apart, the exact date to be determined by the Delegate, the Assembly shall be dismissed, and all Magisters shall be required to resubmit themselves for election as described in 1.2.5
Judicial Branch

3.      This charter does hereby appoint as Judicial Branch the Regional Court, and does charge them as sole interpreters of this charter, and of any subsequent laws passed by the legislative branch

1.      The Regional Court is empowered to make rulings on the actions of the delegate as executor of this charter, and to support them or declare them void, in which case they may instruct the delegate to repeal such actions.

2.      The Regional Court is empowered, at the request of the Consul of the Assembly, or at the request of a member removed temporarily by the Consul, or at their own choosing, to pass judgement on the actions of a member of the Assembly, and if necessary to order their indefinite removal from the Assembly and any further punishments as the Regional Court shall deem expedient.

3.      The Regional Court shall further make rulings on the actions of any nation within the East Pacific, and if judging them to be in contravention to this charter or the laws of the East Pacific, may order such punishment as they deem necessary.

4.      Trials in the Regional Court shall be held in open session, and the proceedings shall be visible to all ratified members of the East Pacific.

5.      The Regional Court shall be privy to any and all knowledge as is required by them to correctly interpret this charter and subsequent laws, which shall be provided to them by the delegate and by the Assembly at their request.

6.      The delegate or Consul of the Assembly may, in the interests of regional security, request to the presiding judge that a closed session by held, whereby the judge may permit that the session or certain parts of it be held in private.

7.      The Regional Court shall be composed of such nations that have ratified this charter, and that are not members of the Assembly. They shall be nominated by the delegate, and must be subsequently approved by the Assembly.

8.      The number of nations on the Regional Court must always be odd, and shall never exceed seven. In the event of incapacitation of a member of the Regional Court, the delegate is charged to appoint a replacement with all due haste.

9.      Should a nation being charged by a partial representation of the Regional Court be unsatisfied with such verdict as is passed, they may request that the full Regional Court sit in decision on such verdict, and ratify or nullify it as they see fit. The full Regional Court may choose to accede to or deny this request.

Chapter 2: The Individual Nations

Rights of the Individual Nations

1.      Being wary of the possibility of misinterpretation, this charter does hereby state the following rights as explicitly preserved to the individual nations.

2.      That each nation shall have the power of free speech, and that the Assembly shall make no law to limit this, nor shall the delegate take any action to curtail it, save when, at the discretion of the delegate or duly appointed representatives, a nation is determined to be acting deliberately to cause a public nuisance, in which case this right may be suspended pending a full investigation by the judicial branch.

1.      That each nation shall have the power to make such alliances as it sees fit, so long as these alliances do not act against the East Pacific, nor against the word or will of this charter.

2.      That each nation shall have the power to form whatever armed forces as they deem necessary for their own defence, or that of the East Pacific.

3.      That each nation shall have the right to full and unbiased trial by the Judicial Branch in the event of any action being taken against them by the regional authorities, or in the case of any accusation being levelled against them.

4.      That each individual nation shall be free to enter and leave the region as they see fit. Upon informing the government of their decision to leave the region, Ratified Nations shall be required to surrender any governmental roles such as set out in this charter, and shall not be eligible to hold such roles until they return to the region.

5.      All other rights not here described or reserved to the government shall remain in the hands of the individual nations.
Charges of the Individual Nations

1.      No nation shall seek to overthrow the government of the East Pacific, or by their actions, to see it weakened.

1.      Nations are charged to abide by such laws as are passed by the Assembly.
Chapter 3: Adoption of this Charter

1.      This charter shall be considered adopted upon approval by the delegate, and by popular vote of the incumbent senate, and by popular vote of the nations of the East Pacific.

1.      Having passed popular vote of the nations, the Senate may decide when it is expedient that this charter comes into effect.

2.      Upon adoption by the region, each nation  may at its own discretion ratify the charter by formal declaration within the East Pacific Forum, at which time they shall be deemed ‘Ratified Nations’, and shall be subject to the rights and privileges ascribed to such by this charter.

— End quote

2

Repost from z11

— Begin quote from ____

The RPs: Yeah, it’s pretty intense. Most of the backstory can be boiled down to essentials and delivered in a short description, but it’s not inherently obvious. As I’ve learned from spending a few weeks tailing a bunch of NSRPers who are https://forum.theeastpacific.com/invision-404 well-built RP is discouraging to newbies. It’s easy to look at it and think that everyone who could get in is in and that joining is a lost cause.

I’m not entirely sure what to do about this. The established RP is a good thing and shouldn’t be discarded, nor should the open-ended rules (or lack of concrete rules, rather). Perhaps it should be relegated to an upper tier with a more friendly lower tier of RP? Would that work?

The government: Yes, we need new blood. We’ve always been aware of our deficiencies, but we’ve never been able to muster the initiative to do anything about it. As long as they don’t burn the place to the ground, newcomers from outside would be a good thing.

— End quote

(going to post this in TEP as well)

I don’t think having a two-tier RP system would work or would be a good idea. I think one thing that would really help would be to maybe look at writing some guides and things, on how to write background for your nation, how to RP, and maybe a brief guide to the history of TEP with explainations of some of the key characters and major RPs. I think that would really help.

Also I think having a stronger OOC government and other non-RP parts of the community would help provide a way for people to get involved within the region without having to dive straight in at the deep end with the RP. It would give people a chance to see how things work and once they feel confident enough to join in with the RP, hopefully they will.

As for the government, I know it isn’t a popular way of doing things but I was thinking that perhaps as a short-term measure the easiest solution would be for Gnid to appoint a “Prime Minister” - the medium-term aim would be to merge that position with the Delegate- but in the shorter-term it would provide a way to get the ball rolling much more quickly and with the least amount of disruption. Just a thought.

3

Well, we all could just submit to Pax rule, and allow the Hive to assimilate all RP. That would be cool.

4

— Begin quote from ____

Well, we all could just submit to Pax rule, and allow the Hive to assimilate all RP.  That would be cool.

— End quote

Hmmm… let me think… https://groups.tapatalk-cdn.com/smilies/52127/1536592186.1436-smiley.gif?ttinline=true
:stuck_out_tongue:

5

— Begin quote from ____

— Begin quote from ____

Well, we all could just submit to Pax rule, and allow the Hive to assimilate all RP.  That would be cool.

— End quote

Hmmm… let me think… https://groups.tapatalk-cdn.com/smilies/52127/1536592186.1436-smiley.gif?ttinline=true
:stuck_out_tongue:

— End quote

Ditto! :stuck_out_tongue:

(puts official hat)

About the Charter, above (and before) anything else, I’d like to urge the Consul and/or the present Magisters to tell us if such a discussion is already taking place (…) or is scheduled to take place in the foreseeable future in the Magisterial rooms.

Thank you, Consul.
Thank you, Magisters.

6

I don’t believe we currently have a Consul, and the Assembly hasn’t met for anything in some time.

Haor, I’m not sure everyone has a link to the forum that z11 quote was from. The rest of the thread can be found https://forum.theeastpacific.com/invision-404

7

The Consul is supposed to be Kelssek. Either that or our gov’t has definitely imploded. Or kidnapped by squirrels, perhaps.

:o Oh gosh… do not TRY to say i’m the highest governmental office round here!!!

8

— Begin quote from ____

The Consul is supposed to be Kelssek. Either that or our gov’t has definitely imploded. Or kidnapped by squirrels, perhaps.

:o Oh gosh… do not TRY to say i’m the highest governmental office round here!!!

— End quote

Looks that way, lol, you would have been 2nd if I didn’t quit. Haha. (And you can’t hate EM, that’s just inhumane. xP).

Part of me wishes I had tried and furthered my government role here but I got my shinny badge in Hyrule.

The other half just likes the RP

The 3rd (& et cetera) half is here to help out if need be.

9

Here’s a good question for ya:

Can I take part in these discussions even though I haven’t ratified the current Charter and hold no position in the gov’t?

Should I ratify the charter?

10

No permission to edit, so I’m double posting. https://groups.tapatalk-cdn.com/smilies/52127/1536592179.9704-smiley.gif?ttinline=true
I disagree about setting up tiers of RP. I believe that is precisely what should be done. Otherwise the RP ends up separated from the rest of the community. Sort of like an old monument park where no one under the age of 70 goes.

Honest to Admin, I do have some ideas. If only I had a bit of time to post them. I’ll be up most of the night, so hopefully I can get it done tonight. :slight_smile:

If you don’t want me posting it here, I have that other place I can put it in too. :wink:

11

Many questions, lady…[ol]
[li]you’re not permitted to edit because that’s reserved to citizens. you’ll get the chance asa you’ll have ratified the charter and the admins will have consequently changed your member group
[li]you do not need to have ratified the charter in order to give your contribution to the discussion, even if it gov’t-related
[li]however, if and when this discussion will have reached an operative level, ONLY citizens will be granted a vote
[li]without wanting to step on kand’s toes, i suppose it’s not strictly legislative stuff. probably “OOC RP Discussion”… but do not worry. in more than one year, i’ve never seen people being reproached because they had put a thread into the wrong subforum. let’s just make it a separate thread, to avoid mixing up things. at worst, one of the surviving admins will move it to the right spot! :wink:
[/li][/ol]
PS: aside RP, double posting is not a problem, here. and even there, the rule is everything but strict. we’re definitely the most tolerant forum around the NS world… :lol:

(puts serious hat away and waits for chocolate)

12

As Haor and Darkesia said, i also disagree about setting tiers on RP. And i liked Haor ideas of making guides to help newcomers.

About the OOC government, surely a stronger government with more people involved would be great, but at the moment i have no idea to offer…

13

Actually Drak, I like the idea of tiers. Not obvious ones, but tiers none the less. I would like to see three things as far as RP is concerned.

  1. In the “heavy duty NS RP” area that dominates the forum now, it would be nice to have at least one topic that was specifically designed for newcomers and experienced TEPers alike to try out new scenarios/characters. That way it wouldn’t be so intimidating to try to jump in to one of these things. I’ll be honest, I’m a very experienced FFRP contributor but have thus far been unable to find a way to fit in to the RP here. And have therefore not participated.

Now, I understand that you do NS based RP here, so I really don’t know how you would handle that. In the FFRP I normally do, it’s generally handled with a Tavern or Inn with no set plot where characters can some together to interact. It needs to be a place where people can take those first steps. I don’t mean one of those “bars” that you see in the light RP of other forums. I mean something with a high level of descriptive text where both old timers and new players participate.

  1. I believe that you need a lighter level of RP designed for those who like to participate in the regional government arena, but would rather leave the “novel writing” to the pros. It already exists here in your gov’t structure, but it’s grown a bit stale. This could also be altered, should those from the Merit truly be interested in join in TEP. Their RP style is just as deep as TEP, but it is more based on regional government issues.

What else is a regional court, military, UN or legislative debate but light RP? It might feel more real at times because of the emotion involved, but it’s truly RP. (within this level you need to put a ministry of immigration or some such thing specifically designed to process the new people)

In the second, lighter level of RP there needs to be a mandate that the older players participate. This is where you mingle with new players. It’s important.

  1. The lightest yet most important level of RP is the RMB. This is where you find new players to refresh your ranks. It’s where you give the first impression of the game as well as the region. It’s the place where your Delegate and a few established players should show interest and interaction. Once you become active on the RMB you will start to notice some region members that don’t come to the forum, but suddenly have a place to participate and you get active, interesting or at least friendly banter.

As far as specific structure of the gov’t, I would say the formation and ACTIVITY of an informative “ministry” linking the RMB to the forum (Immigration) is important. Also you will need some ministry for linking the Regional Gov’t to the deeper RP. Perhaps a news agency of some kind. Next you need a far, far more active Foreign affairs department to link you to the rest of NationStates.

I think you see the point. Linking things together is the key. The rest is gravy.

Oh…
And it would make your forum a whole lot friendlier if you put the OOC games higher in the structure of the forum. The inactivity of them and their location make it seem as if TEP thinks games are beneath them. If they are poorly attended, place them in a single forum and hide the specific topics from the general view. But put them higher up in the forum so that new people see them. It’s the first place they head. The ice breaker, so to speak.

[/rant] *Darkesia goes to bake banana bread

14

So many good points and rants…oh what’s the EM to do…

Well the government section is…like hidden away, that really needs to be open out. As I am redoing the Hyrule forum at the moment we actually went over how the government section was going to look like and et cetera. I asked all the ministers of Hyrule what they wanted to see. We all agreed on an open government section that was easily accessed.

Anyhow back to my point, the more attractive it looks, the better it will attract.

(I now see what I was reading somewhere…when members go out to UCR, they bring back ideas)

15

— Begin quote from ____

Actually Drak, I like the idea of tiers. Not obvious ones, but tiers none the less. I would like to see three things as far as RP is concerned.

  1. In the “heavy duty NS RP” area that dominates the forum now, it would be nice to have at least one topic that was specifically designed for newcomers and experienced TEPers alike to try out new scenarios/characters. That way it wouldn’t be so intimidating to try to jump in to one of these things. I’ll be honest, I’m a very experienced FFRP contributor but have thus far been unable to find a way to fit in to the RP here. And have therefore not participated.

Now, I understand that you do NS based RP here, so I really don’t know how you would handle that. In the FFRP I normally do, it’s generally handled with a Tavern or Inn with no set plot where characters can some together to interact. It needs to be a place where people can take those first steps. I don’t mean one of those “bars” that you see in the light RP of other forums. I mean something with a high level of descriptive text where both old timers and new players participate.

— End quote

I’ll start by saying that what I was thinking of by tiers is not the same as what you have mentioned. Which is a good thing. :slight_smile:

I see what you’re saying here, I think one way for new people to introduce their nation would be some kind of “Embassy” RP, where their nation opens an embassy in Rillanon City and so on might be an idea. I think part of the problem lies in the difference between NS ‘national’ RP and what I would call normal, character, RP. There is the Shiro Academy of course, though I can appreciate that the same situation with a newbie joining a long standing thread is apparent there.

Attempts to explore the MAD in the Merit never met with much success, though we could try something like that here- expand upon Rillanon/Christie Island to provide a number of different places for characters to interact.

— Begin quote from ____

  1. I believe that you need a lighter level of RP designed for those who like to participate in the regional government arena, but would rather leave the “novel writing” to the pros.  It already exists here in your gov’t structure, but it’s grown a bit stale.  This could also be altered, should those from the Merit truly be interested in join in TEP.  Their RP style is just as deep as TEP, but it is more based on regional government issues.

What else is a regional court, military, UN or legislative debate but light RP?  It might feel more real at times because of the emotion involved, but it’s truly RP.  (within this level you need to put a ministry of immigration or some such thing specifically designed to process the new people)

In the second, lighter level of RP there needs to be a mandate that the older players participate.  This is where you mingle with new players.  It’s important.

— End quote

Whilst NS government is of course “RP”, it is different (and currently -though the same applies in most regions- totally seperate from the other RP) from the kind of RP seen in Inwardly Angled Hostilities.

The problem with the Merit example is that the Senate was always designed as a part of Meriterra. Integrating the regional government into the RP concept here would be more difficult (though not impossible) and would probably require significant changes in the RP background- not insurmountable of course but it is something that would have to be dealt with. (I hope I’m not coming over too negative here, I’m not meaning to, I’m just raising some of the issues this would create)

Even in the Senate the boundaries between the MiniTrue RP and the Senate Hall RP were blurry- the fact that interregional relations (foreign affairs) were not (could not?) explained in RP terms meant that there was a kind of grey area hovering around that we more or less just ignored (others may disagree with me there; in reality that part of the Senate was dealt with as an OOC matter but technically the situation between IC/OCC was never really resolved IMO). Particularly an issue as foreign affairs and recruitment are the main areas of focus (or tend to be) of the regional government.

So, I’m not sure whether integrating the regional government “RP” with the, ah, RP “RP” is the best idea or not. Though of course keeping them seperate has problems of its own.

— Begin quote from ____

  1. The lightest yet most important level of RP is the RMB.  This is where you find new players to refresh your ranks.  It’s where you give the first impression of the game as well as the region.  It’s the place where your Delegate and a few established players should show interest and interaction.  Once you become active on the RMB you will start to notice some region members that don’t come to the forum, but suddenly have a place to participate and you get active, interesting or at least friendly banter.

As far as specific structure of the gov’t, I would say the formation and ACTIVITY of an informative “ministry” linking the RMB to the forum (Immigration) is important.  Also you will need some ministry for linking the Regional Gov’t to the deeper RP.  Perhaps a news agency of some kind.  Next you need a far, far more active Foreign affairs department to link you to the rest of NationStates.

I think you see the point.  Linking things together is the key.  The rest is gravy.

— End quote

IMHO, the first priority, before charter reform or wholesale changes to the government, is to get an active government in place as best we can to get things moving first.

I think, using the charter, there is nothing to stop Gnid as Delegate from appointing someone as Grand Vizier and delegating as much of his power as possible to that person so that we can get the ball rolling right away, if we can then appoint some active people to the various jobs that need filling (foreign affairs, a new Ministry of Immigration or something similar, etc) that should start things going. Just a thought anyway.

— Begin quote from ____

Oh… 
And it would make your forum a whole lot friendlier if you put the OOC games higher in the structure of the forum.  The inactivity of them and their location make it seem as if TEP thinks games are beneath them.  If they are poorly attended, place them in a single forum and hide the specific topics from the general view.  But put them higher up in the forum so that new people see them.  It’s the first place they head.  The ice breaker, so to speak.

[/rant] *Darkesia goes to bake banana bread

— End quote

I agree! https://groups.tapatalk-cdn.com/smilies/52127/1536592182.6772-smiley.gif?ttinline=true

16

I’ve had a brief chat with Kand yesterday evening (well, for ME it was evening. and considering i’m the center of the universe, it WAS evening. anywhere!) and shiro has been one of teh topic.

the thread is definitely a “jolly”, as it can be approached by newbies, too. unfortunately, at present time it is SO long that it’s scary. chances for newbies (aside drak, but drak is a terrible example, because the guy is as mad as a horse) to jump in are 0%. therefore, changes are on sight. just trust us! :wink:

Agreed. Merging the two things could be rather tricky. Some of us do indeed try, every now and then (mainly via in-game references), but it’s rather difficult. Mainly because an healthy RP moves 10 times faster than any governmental thing.

so, i’d say “no, let’s keep them separate”. different opinions are obviously welcome. i’m not a diktat-man, lol! :wink:

Two main problems.[ol]
[li]We already have a Grand Vizier (Dannistaan), who’s not that active, lately. And when he comes online, it’s 99% RP.
[li]Do not misunderstand teh GV role, here. The GV is a puppet who’s authorized to play with adulths’ things (endorsements) but he has no other chance. With the present Charter, there’s no chance to have things moving without a Delegate. No subtitutes.
[/li][/ol]

17

I disagree.

Waiting until such times as we can get a new Delegate and government system in place is a perfectly acceptable plan and if that is the decision reached, so be it. That is the end result that we are aiming for anyway, I just think that there is a way to get things rolling in the intervening time.

Also, I’m afraid I would say that you are incorrect in your assessment of the situation from a technical perspective.

I refer, mainly, to Article 5 in the Charter:

You could, of course, create something else and call it whatever you want. I understand the current role of the GV but am suggesting changing the role of the Grand Vizier as a way of giving purpose to an already existing position.

18

— Begin quote from ____

— Begin quote from ____

  1. The delegate shall appoint advisors as he sees fit, and may designate to them any such powers as are granted to him under this charter.

— End quote

— End quote

In theory, I could agree with you, my friend.

Practically, however, i’ve never seen a GV receiving other task but gathering endo and therefore influence. gov’t wise, i’ve indeed NEVER seen a GV saying anything.

Things can change, sure… but not without an (improbable) intervention of the Delegate.

19

Just to add my tupence worth in that as far as I see it, the GV (i.e. me ;)) is really only meant to do something when all hell breaks loose and the Delegate needs help.

20

NOW i’ve seen a GV saying something. :lol: